PLA "Stride-2014" Military Exercise

I don't know how much time your average PLA grunt gets in the field a year. But if you know what you're looking for, "fresh" troops stands out like dog's balls.

Take this guy for example.

That chest rig look straight out of the box. There is a certain look to grunts that has been in the field all their career. Generally, you have two sets of uniforms. Your parade set and your fieldies. The parade set is your nice set. Everything ironed and creased for the parade ground. Then you have your fieldies, the dirty salty pair that you take on your field ex. The buckles and straps on your rigs taped down. Pockets adjusted just the way you like them. Something that looks like it's been on more pack marches than you care to admit.

There's also the way a seasoned war fighter moves. That patrol cradle when moving slowly and delibrately. That quick but not rushed jog to the next position. Knowing exactly where you should be in the advance cause you drilled this a billion times. I'm just not seeing it here in these videos. They runs around like headless chickens in a gaggle. Looking like recruits.

Looking at this guy. I wonder if this is the first time this year he's been on actual field training.

Which leads to my original concerns that these "exercises" are exactly the show pieces that PLA used to run. Look up what kind of training the marines get at 21 Palms. I wonder if the PLA grunts get the same kind of realistic training. If not, why not.

Well, that is exactly one of my previously stated points. China still has conscription, the ground forces have been the lowest priority within the PLA for quite a few years now, by nature the ground forces also need the least specialization (except for high tech units such as EW, C&C, and certain guided munitions) so guess which recruits they get from the available pool, and with all due respect these participants are known to be second tier units, that's their starting point.

So I agree with your assessment and apparently so does the PLA that these units are not up to par, which is why they flunked the exercises. Since they already flunked these exercises it does not make sense for you to call for the exercises to be even tougher. The training has to correspond to the learner's ability for improvement to be desired and thorough otherwise the learner would either just give up or go through the motions without real understanding.
 

Doombreed

Junior Member
So I agree with your assessment and apparently so does the PLA that these units are not up to par, which is why they flunked the exercises. Since they already flunked these exercises it does not make sense for you to call for the exercises to be even tougher. The training has to correspond to the learner's ability for improvement to be desired and thorough otherwise the learner would either just give up or go through the motions without real understanding.

I think this is very interesting and maybe even deserving of it's own thread. Just how do the PLA traing their grunts? Do they go out to the field at least once a month? Do they even do regular pack marches? I haven't seen one pack in any of the videos or pictures.

Granted, that it would be an extreme rare situation for PLA ground troops to be engaged in intense conventional combat. But culture and experience don't just happen overnight. You train your grunts like POGs and when the shit hits the fan they're gonna fight like POGs. And you can't turn POGs into grunts overnight. That is especially true for the NCO and Officer Corps.

So what does PLA training look like?
 

port_08

Junior Member
PLA is really sad, what's their previous war? Is it a good thing or a bad things that PLA should engage in a real war? Who shall PLA kickass? Saddam\Iraq? Where's not sure it's a good thing that PLA should be engaging in some war of sort to train real men of them. Should PLA starting kicking Vietnamese, Koreans or Japanese armies to prove macho? Should PLA proves themselves and should we cheer them on....you ain't no macho unless you start to kick some real ass...
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
PLA is really sad, what's their previous war? Is it a good thing or a bad things that PLA should engage in a real war? Who shall PLA kickass? Saddam\Iraq? Where's not sure it's a good thing that PLA should be engaging in some war of sort to train real men of them. Should PLA starting kicking Vietnamese, Koreans or Japanese armies to prove macho? Should PLA proves themselves and should we cheer them on....you ain't no macho unless you start to kick some real ass...

Stop tolling.
 

GreatWall

New Member
Registered Member
PLA is really sad, what's their previous war? Is it a good thing or a bad things that PLA should engage in a real war? Who shall PLA kickass? Saddam\Iraq? Where's not sure it's a good thing that PLA should be engaging in some war of sort to train real men of them. Should PLA starting kicking Vietnamese, Koreans or Japanese armies to prove macho? Should PLA proves themselves and should we cheer them on....you ain't no macho unless you start to kick some real ass...

Risk the lives of Chinese soldiers and hundreds of millions of dollars of equipment and starve the country just to prove to everyone you're "macho?" What in the world are you going on about?
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Haters are going to hate.

Why do you think someone who so clearly hates China so much is spending so much time posting in a decided Chinese military forum?

The only reason such people come here and post is because they get off on the reaction to their wind up and trolling.

You are never going to convince such people of anything they don't already believe, and trying is just a waste of time and giving them the attention they so desperately wants.

Don't feed the trolls guys.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Just an aside, someone mentioned a few posts up that China still has conscription, which while technically true, is not true in practice. They receive so many volunteers there is no need to enforce conscription.

So using supposed conscription as a basis to explain the "poor" performance in these exercises, and/or to explain any videos or images of perceived "unprofessionalism" is flawed from the onset.


The reason for the poor performance of the many brigades can be attributed to the parameters of the exercise, and possibly the fact that many of the brigades were not drawn from A team units -- in fact the choice was probably deliberately to see how the more B team units would perform in a hell hole situation.

As for criticisms of uniform or whatever, that is being made from a few videos and photos, and drawing vast conclusions from a few pics and minutes of video captured through the distorted lens of what the PLA considers "good PR," is laughable at best and I think that reflects less on the PLA and more on the naivety of a few users. I'm not sure how new they are to PLA watching.
 

Doombreed

Junior Member
Just an aside, someone mentioned a few posts up that China still has conscription, which while technically true, is not true in practice. They receive so many volunteers there is no need to enforce conscription.

So using supposed conscription as a basis to explain the "poor" performance in these exercises, and/or to explain any videos or images of perceived "unprofessionalism" is flawed from the onset.


The reason for the poor performance of the many brigades can be attributed to the parameters of the exercise, and possibly the fact that many of the brigades were not drawn from A team units -- in fact the choice was probably deliberately to see how the more B team units would perform in a hell hole situation.

As for criticisms of uniform or whatever, that is being made from a few videos and photos, and drawing vast conclusions from a few pics and minutes of video captured through the distorted lens of what the PLA considers "good PR," is laughable at best and I think that reflects less on the PLA and more on the naivety of a few users. I'm not sure how new they are to PLA watching.

Have you ever manned a VCP? That's vehicle check point for you unintiated. One of the things you do is ask the driver to turn off the radio, or switch on the fog lights, and see if they fumble around. Now, when they does fumble, it doesn't mean its a stolen car. If could just be a new car. But it's a data point.

The unprofessionalism I've been seeing are just that. Data points. And when you get a bunch of data points it paints a picture. When I'm seeing basic mistakes consistantly. It paints a picture.

What you're implying is of cause that the PLA are tier-1 war fighters. Which is understandable. We all want to root for our own teams. But I suspect the real truth is somewhere in the middle.

I dare accuse the PLA of not focusing enough on basic infantry skills and focusing too much on equipment. I accuse the PLA of not doing realistic training often enough with their grunts and in high enough intensity. I accuse the PLA of being too politicalized and not focusing enough on their core task, that is war fighting. I accuse the PLA of not developing their NCO and Officer Corps with enough actual war fighting skills and leadership.

If you want to live with your head in the sand thinking the PLA is a peerless tier-1 fighting force, that is your prerogative.
I'm saying that the PLA has to change their culture and focus on being actual war fighters if they want to stand a chance in conventional combat.

As for rationalising saying they're B class units. Why the hell are you finding this out now in the year of our lord two thousand and fourteen? The fact that the PLA is finding out now speaks volumes about just how far they have to travel to become a real effecient fighting force.

What I want to see is real actions undertaken by the PLA to address these fundamental issues. In the exercise next year, I want to see soliders that look squared away. Soldiers that moves like they live and breathe in the field. Commanders with actual command presence and leadership qualities, instead of hamming it up for the cameras.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Have you ever manned a VCP? That's vehicle check point for you unintiated. One of the things you do is ask the driver to turn off the radio, or switch on the fog lights, and see if they fumble around. Now, when they does fumble, it doesn't mean its a stolen car. If could just be a new car. But it's a data point.

The unprofessionalism I've been seeing are just that. Data points. And when you get a bunch of data points it paints a picture. When I'm seeing basic mistakes consistantly. It paints a picture.

What you're implying is of cause that the PLA are tier-1 war fighters. Which is understandable. We all want to root for our own teams. But I suspect the real truth is somewhere in the middle.

Actually, I'm implying that any attempts to draw extensive conclusions of proficiency and combat readiness (along with perceptions of "political showmanship") will be made through the distorted lens of a CCTV camera.
There are some likely conclusions we can draw, such as regarding equipment (the lack of body armour in many exercises, for one of many), and incidences of what we interpret as shabby procedure, but whether we can generalize it into a larger picture is another matter. That is where I disagree.


I dare accuse the PLA of not focusing enough on basic infantry skills and focusing too much on equipment. I accuse the PLA of not doing realistic training often enough with their grunts and in high enough intensity. I accuse the PLA of being too politicalized and not focusing enough on their core task, that is war fighting. I accuse the PLA of not developing their NCO and Officer Corps with enough actual war fighting skills and leadership.

Those are heady assumptions. Not unfair nor fully unsubstantiated, depending on how much credence you give what we see. I'll address this point in my next paragraph.


If you want to live with your head in the sand thinking the PLA is a peerless tier-1 fighting force, that is your prerogative.
I'm saying that the PLA has to change their culture and focus on being actual war fighters if they want to stand a chance in conventional combat.

I think you are misrepresenting my position, as a matter of fact I've never thought the PLA was a peerless tier one fighting force, and one has to be blind to see underlying problems in equipment and training realism -- those are all points I've fully believed in.

I don't disagree with the general foundation of your points -- the PLA does need greater training realism, they do need to equip their soldiers better, and place emphasis on a stronger NCO corps. But I disagree with the specificity of your accusations which I do not believe we have the generalize and judge from, based on our limited and circumstantial evidence.


As for rationalising saying they're B class units. Why the hell are you finding this out now in the year of our lord two thousand and fourteen? The fact that the PLA is finding out now speaks volumes about just how far they have to travel to become a real effecient fighting force.

I'm not rationalizing poor performance in the exercises due to the current units being drawn from the less elite units, that was a point for additional consideration on top of the main fact that the exercises were designed to provide overwhelming advantages for the opfor.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the fact that the PLA is finding out now" -- are you saying they haven't found out before, meaning you're assuming these exercises are the first ones they've practiced for their B team units? Because I never mentioned anything about these exercises having been preceded by or not preceded by any similar exercises.

(And weren't you the one that said an exercise with such parameters were useless in the first place, because they were too unrealistic?)


What I want to see is real actions undertaken by the PLA to address these fundamental issues. In the exercise next year, I want to see soliders that look squared away. Soldiers that moves like they live and breathe in the field. Commanders with actual command presence and leadership qualities, instead of hamming it up for the cameras.

Unfortunately that will probably require CCTV and the PLA's PR team to not have a presence.

We have pictures of PLA troops doing exercises and photo shoots that look ridiculous -- jumping through hoops of fire, SOF pretending to spar with each using dadao, mass martial arts training, and obviously (poorly) scripted statements by commanders and soldiers in CCTV reports. And I agree that does represent showmanship, but the presence of that does not mean they are not proficient in other practical areas. I'm obviously not claiming the entirety of the PLA is a well oiled war machine, I'm only saying that showmanship seen through stupid CCTV news reports and documentaries (not to mention empty headed PLA PR teams)
The above does not seek to explain deificiencies in equipment or other areas that are visually seen through pictures or news reports, and we can draw a few conclusions that pass the smell test.

Also, seeing some soldiers who look squared away and brisk in their actions is no more indicative that the entire PLA are at a similar level of professionalism, anymore than seeing some soldiers who look shabby is indicative of the entire PLA at a similar level of disrepair.
 

vesicles

Colonel
A couple years back, cadets from a top Chinese military academy were invited to participate in an annual competition at the West Point. About 35 or 36 teams from some of the best military academies from over a dozen nations attended the challenge, which included at least a dozen West Point teams. It was the first time for the Chinese team to attend such competition in the west. Because of their unfamiliarity of the rules and equipment, they did poorly on the first day, ranking in the bottom third of all teams. However, they rebounded big time on the second day, winning almost all challenges that day. And their final ranking was #4 out of 35/36 teams and beating most of the West Point teams.

So what does this conpetition tells us? Well, since this competition has been designed to test basic infantry training of the cadets, the fact that the Chinese team managed to beat majority of the teams suggests that the Chinese cadets were trained properly and the PLA knows how to train their soldiers. Secondly, many believe that lacking of actual war experience would put the Chinese in the disadvantage. Their first day showed exactly that. Yet, they rebounded mightily, showing that lack of experience may cost them a few battles, but means absolutely nothing in terms of the outcome of the whole war. Now people may say they might have sent the best to the competition. That could be true. However, their competitors were no pushovers either. West Point is THE best military academy in the US and there were at least a dozen West Point teams at the competition. So it was literally the best vs. the best cadets.

What I am attempting to say is that you simply cannot make judgement on the entire PLA based on a few TV footage and some random photos. No one knows how the photos were taken, whether staged or not. Simply put, too many unknowns and too many variables. International competitions such as the West Point one I mentioned above, on the other hand, can be used as a measuring stick since everyone was put in the same situation and no one was acting for the camera. And when that happens and in a competition designed by the best military academy in the world to simulate actual combat, the Chinese team beat most of the competition. So if it were left to me to judge based on some random photos or the outcome of an actual competition, I would make my judgement based on the actual competition.
 
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