PLA Next Generation Main Battle Tank

alanch90

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Firepower:
View attachment 156360

  • 105mm/L58 high-velocity gun, firing a new 4th-gen APFSDSwith:
    • ~750mm penetrator length
    • ~6.45 kg mass
    • Muzzle velocity: 1,706 m/s
    • Theoretical penetration: 720mm RHA

Are you sure it says 750mm long penetrator? Or is it the full projectile? Because if its the former, theoretical penetration is much, much higher than 720mm RHA, more like 800-900mm.
 

qwerty3173

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Are you sure it says 750mm long penetrator? Or is it the full projectile? Because if its the former, theoretical penetration is much, much higher than 720mm RHA, more like 800-900mm.
750mm is the lower bound of estimate by known information of used sabots and stuff. The 720mm in fact is just a War Thunder version of calculation which for some reason uses an ancient set of equations and every single round in the game is nerfed like hell. In reality overall you can probably expect a penetration capability similar to M829A4.
 

Kejora

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750mm is the lower bound of estimate by known information of used sabots and stuff. The 720mm in fact is just a War Thunder version of calculation which for some reason uses an ancient set of equations and every single round in the game is nerfed like hell. In reality overall you can probably expect a penetration capability similar to M829A4.
How does it achieve that kind of penetration out of 105mm shell?
 

Tomboy

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750mm is the lower bound of estimate by known information of used sabots and stuff. The 720mm in fact is just a War Thunder version of calculation which for some reason uses an ancient set of equations and every single round in the game is nerfed like hell. In reality overall you can probably expect a penetration capability similar to M829A4.
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If 750mm is the projectile then this new ammo will on paper fall short of even US last generation ammo, the M829A3, which had a projectile length of 924mm and estimated penetrator length of 770mm. In fact, US ETC cannons have much higher muzzle energy as well, the XM291 120mm achieved nearly 17MJ of muzzle energy while this new projectile seems to only have half that.
 

Kejora

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If 750mm is the projectile then this new ammo will on paper fall short of even US last generation ammo, the M829A3, which had a projectile length of 924mm and estimated penetrator length of 770mm. In fact, US ETC cannons have much higher muzzle energy as well, the XM291 120mm achieved nearly 17MJ of muzzle energy while this new projectile seems to only have half that.
To be fair it's a 105mm cannon not 125mm.
 

Tomboy

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To be fair it's a 105mm cannon not 125mm.
I don't see why they would ever want a 105mm on their next generation MBT without some tricks up its sleeve like maybe a HSTV-L type autocannon but scaled up to 105mm and with ETC technology etc. If it does indeed turnout to be a bog standard rifled(God forbid more L7 derivative) 105mm then it'll actually be so disappointing.
 

qwerty3173

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I don't see why they would ever want a 105mm on their next generation MBT without some tricks up its sleeve like maybe a HSTV-L type autocannon but scaled up to 105mm and with ETC technology etc. If it does indeed turnout to be a bog standard rifled(God forbid more L7 derivative) 105mm then it'll actually be so disappointing.
It has a higher muzzle velocity than the M829 series, and M829A4 is in fact only marginally better than M829A3 (They reached the limit of the gun) so similar performance. Rifled guns can fire HE rounds more effectively compared to smoothbore guns which fire more effective HEAT rounds so it's just good at different things. Personally I believe HE rounds really showed potential in Ukraine while HEAT performance was lackluster.
 

Nx4eu

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I don't see why they would ever want a 105mm on their next generation MBT without some tricks up its sleeve like maybe a HSTV-L type autocannon but scaled up to 105mm and with ETC technology etc. If it does indeed turnout to be a bog standard rifled(God forbid more L7 derivative) 105mm then it'll actually be so disappointing.
A 105mm gun that can match performances of previous gen 120mm guns and shells Is a pretty impressive upgrade considering how much lighter a 105 is to a 120. 105mm guns are more than twice as light than a 120mm counterpart. By saving weight, this can be allocated to other areas.

A light tank weighing 30-40 tonnes with as much firepower as a heavy 70 tonne MBT from NATO, with superior overall protection against modern battlefield threats, with simpler logistics and at a cheaper cost would be a incredible upgrade/replacement for all the old 96A tanks in the PLA inventory. How do you hear this and be disappointed? High standards much.

You also have to look at what China’s threat are. They aren’t going to face NATO style heavy MBTs with crazy armor protection. They will face tanks like the T-72 Ajeya, T-90 Bhishma and the Zorawar on the Himalayas and Tibetan plateau.

There is also like you said a rumoured heavy tank also under development, the small lighter tank within the 40 tonne range cant be expected to have as much performance as a 50-60 tonne tank with all the new technologies.
 

Kejora

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I don't see why they would ever want a 105mm on their next generation MBT without some tricks up its sleeve like maybe a HSTV-L type autocannon but scaled up to 105mm and with ETC technology etc. If it does indeed turnout to be a bog standard rifled(God forbid more L7 derivative) 105mm then it'll actually be so disappointing.
It has L/58 barrel compared to standard L/52 and it has penetration comparable to 120mm DM53 and 125mm DTC-10-125 from a smaller and lighter gun (assuming the spec is accurate). I'm more curious if China has 120-130mm cannon with one piece ammunition under development.
 

Tomboy

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It has a higher muzzle velocity than the M829 series, and M829A4 is in fact only marginally better than M829A3 (They reached the limit of the gun) so similar performance. Rifled guns can fire HE rounds more effectively compared to smoothbore guns which fire more effective HEAT rounds so it's just good at different things. Personally I believe HE rounds really showed potential in Ukraine while HEAT performance was lackluster.
Muzzle velocity doesn't mean much(Unless extremely high like >2000m/s then it could mean something interesting is going on here) unless you consider the total muzzle energy(M829A4 has a muzzle energy of ~13MJ which is a ~45 percent increase over this 105mm projectile), which is far more important, sure I can shoot a very light projectile extremely fast, but it'll do less damage compared to a slower but much heavier projectile with much more muzzle energy. You mention HE shells being awesome, well guess what larger calibers are good at? Even if they can make a 105mm projectile match current NATO 120mm AP projectiles(I'm not doubting this, it could obviously be done), there is almost no way you can make a 105mm ever have as much explosive filler as a 120mm or 125mm due to inherent size limit. Same also applies to gun launched AGTMs(Which rifled barrels makes designs more complicated) and advanced multipurpose rounds, they are going to suffer from less payload and less range due to limited size.
A 105mm gun that can match performances of previous gen 120mm guns and shells Is a pretty impressive upgrade considering how much lighter a 105 is to a 120. 105mm guns are more than twice as light than a 120mm counterpart. By saving weight, this can be allocated to other areas.

A light tank weighing 30-40 tonnes with as much firepower as a heavy 70 tonne MBT from NATO, with superior overall protection against modern battlefield threats, with simpler logistics and at a cheaper cost would be a incredible upgrade/replacement for all the old 96A tanks in the PLA inventory. How do you hear this and be disappointed? High standards much.

You also have to look at what China’s threat are. They aren’t going to face NATO style heavy MBTs with crazy armor protection. They will face tanks like the T-72 Ajeya, T-90 Bhishma and the Zorawar on the Himalayas and Tibetan plateau.

There is also like you said a rumoured heavy tank also under development, the small lighter tank within the 40 tonne range cant be expected to have as much performance as a 50-60 tonne tank with all the new technologies.
Advanced ETC guns like XM291(Relatively old gun) is already approaching 105mm guns in weight with much better versatility, plus is trading a much better gun for an extra ~500kg worth it? Sure, I understand making it light weight but ~40 tons fully armored is already extremely good especially if peak power of >1500hp can be expected due to hybrid powertrain, at some point making a tank lighter only gains limited logistical benefit at the expense of decreasing firepower and armor which are critical for an MBT. Also, I'm more convinced these tanks are meant for expeditionary warfare and not the Indian border which the ZTQ-15s already do a good job of protecting, for expeditionary missions the threats you face become much more versatile you could potentially face heavily armored NATO MBTs, old T-72s and anything in between meaning even if you don't have enough armor to defend against you could atleast have the ability to kill which is something this tank apparently lacks. As I mentioned above, this tank also seems to be lackluster in overall firepower compared to current MBTs even for non-antitank duties due to a smaller caliber. Assuming all of these claims about the new tank are true I'm beginning to doubt its role as a future MBT and perhaps it really is just a ZTQ-15 replacement or maybe similar to the Booker assault gun type thingamajig.
 
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