plawolf
Lieutenant General
If you are expecting your LSTs to need to defend themselves regularly and against significant attacks you are using them wrong.
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- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
No.
A LST is a LST. They are meant to be medium sized (5000t displacement), and be a relatively cheap way of delivering vehicles to the beach either by landing itself directly on the beach or by deploying them directly into the water.
Adding the complexity of a 130mm gun would significantly complicate the design and configuration of the ship.
Increasing the self defense capability of the LST might be an okay idea, perhaps an 8 cell HQ-10 at most -- but to make use of it, means you'd need to equip your LST with a more capable radar system as well to cue it.
If you want to enhance the fire support of your amphibious assault force and to enhance the air defense capabilities of the force, it is far more efficient to simply procure dedicated ships for it.
It would be relatively simple to develop a type of MLRS fire support ship by either converting existing old small landing ships or by building new hulls from the ground up. Such ships would be very basic and easily done by the Chinese shipbuilding industry. Something like a modern LSM(R).
The PLAN will have plentiful air defense frigates with area air defense capability against sea skimmers, as well as supported by corvettes with low draft that have their own HQ-10 systems on board.
As for having a ramp in the stern -- the 072 family of LSTs already have a continuous through deck cargo hold with both a bow and a stern ramp.
It is able to deploy amphibious assault vehicles from both the bow and the stern, directly into the water.
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Frankly I don't see any issues with the 072 family of LSTs, in terms of their armament or configuration.
The modern 072As that were built in the mid 2010s had a decent set up with a 30mm autocannon. If it could be remotely fired it would be better.
Expecting your LST to be equipped with a 130mm gun is absolutely ridiculous.
These are basic landing ships.
They shouldn't be equipped with anything more than very basic self defense capabilities against small boats, maybe having a few MANPADS onboard against helicopters.
Being "totally defenseless" is the sort of the entire point.
I'd be supportive of the ships being installed with a more extensive, but cheap, decoy and soft kill system.
If they are able to develop a variant of HQ-10 with self contained sensors for cuing (i.e.: not requiring substantial refit and enhancement of the overall ship's sensor suite), I would be okay with installation of an 8 cell HQ-10 as well.... but even that may be a bit much.
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I don't agree. LSTs are large ships and the force they are supposed to carry is extremely valuable and politically important. So I don't think a nation should go light in an LSTs defense. SHORAD is cheap, compact, and can save lives. I would have 2 x short-range air defense systems on board. The HQ-10 is already available and is fit for the job. Soft kill measures need to exist too.No.
A LST is a LST. They are meant to be medium sized (5000t displacement), and be a relatively cheap way of delivering vehicles to the beach either by landing itself directly on the beach or by deploying them directly into the water.
Adding the complexity of a 130mm gun would significantly complicate the design and configuration of the ship.
Increasing the self defense capability of the LST might be an okay idea, perhaps an 8 cell HQ-10 at most -- but to make use of it, means you'd need to equip your LST with a more capable radar system as well to cue it.
If you want to enhance the fire support of your amphibious assault force and to enhance the air defense capabilities of the force, it is far more efficient to simply procure dedicated ships for it.
It would be relatively simple to develop a type of MLRS fire support ship by either converting existing old small landing ships or by building new hulls from the ground up. Such ships would be very basic and easily done by the Chinese shipbuilding industry. Something like a modern LSM(R).
The PLAN will have plentiful air defense frigates with area air defense capability against sea skimmers, as well as supported by corvettes with low draft that have their own HQ-10 systems on board.
As for having a ramp in the stern -- the 072 family of LSTs already have a continuous through deck cargo hold with both a bow and a stern ramp.
It is able to deploy amphibious assault vehicles from both the bow and the stern, directly into the water.
====
Frankly I don't see any issues with the 072 family of LSTs, in terms of their armament or configuration.
The modern 072As that were built in the mid 2010s had a decent set up with a 30mm autocannon. If it could be remotely fired it would be better.
Expecting your LST to be equipped with a 130mm gun is absolutely ridiculous.
These are basic landing ships.
They shouldn't be equipped with anything more than very basic self defense capabilities against small boats, maybe having a few MANPADS onboard against helicopters.
Being "totally defenseless" is the sort of the entire point.
I'd be supportive of the ships being installed with a more extensive, but cheap, decoy and soft kill system.
If they are able to develop a variant of HQ-10 with self contained sensors for cuing (i.e.: not requiring substantial refit and enhancement of the overall ship's sensor suite), I would be okay with installation of an 8 cell HQ-10 as well.... but even that may be a bit much.
130 mm gun is more debatable since modern targeting and networking can enable other ships to do that job. But an LST would undoubtedly benefit from being able to support the landing. It can be offloaded to another vessel but the capability needs to exist. 76 mm is OK too and it can be used as a CIWS too. Just like the HQ-10, a modern naval gun is compact and light for an LST and its price is nothing compared to what the ship is supposed to carry.
For example:
Other than these the 074A already has good helicopter capability and a modern structure with a stern ramp.
The PLAN once did try something of that sort I think with one of their 053H frigates, by just putting a bunch of rocket artillery on board. But it seems nothing ever came out of that experiment, which makes sense since such a ship wouldn't do anything the rocket forces can't do already.
The Liaoning aircraft carrier group recently started a routine, realistic combat training mission in the West Pacific, the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) Navy announced on Tuesday, after the powerful flotilla was reportedly spotted entering the West Pacific via the Miyako Strait on Monday.
Consisting of at least eight warships, the carrier group is the largest to head out to far sea among recent voyages, marking a significant combat capability boost in preparation for missions that include a potential military conflict across the Taiwan Straits, experts said.
The PLA Navy sent the Liaoning aircraft carrier group to conduct realistic combat training in the far sea of the West Pacific, Senior Captain Gao Xiucheng, a spokesperson of the PLA Navy, confirmed in a press release on Tuesday.
The exercise is a routine one organized according to the annual schedule and is aimed at boosting the Navy’s capabilities to carry out its duties, Gao said, noting that the voyage is in line with related international law and practice and is not targeted at another party.
Gao’s remarks came after Japan reported on the movements of the Chinese carrier group on Monday.
A total of eight PLA Navy vessels, namely the aircraft carrier Liaoning, the Type 055 large guided missile destroyer Nanchang, the Type 052D guided missile destroyers Xining, Urumqi and Chengdu, the Type 052C guided missile destroyer Zhengzhou, the Type 054A guided missile frigate Xiangtan and the Type 901 comprehensive supply ship Hulunhu, were spotted sailing from the East China Sea through the waters between Okinawa Island and Miyako Island headed toward the Pacific Ocean on Monday, Japan’s Ministry of Defense Joint Staff said in a statement released later that same day.
A number of J-15 carrier-based fighter jets as well as Z-8 and Z-9 helicopters could be seen standing by on the flight deck of the Liaoning, according to a photo attached to the press release.
According to official PLA media outlets, the Liaoning has had some maritime exercises earlier this year, and this should be the first time it has been across the first island chain and sailed into the West Pacific in 2022, following , observers said.
This also marks the largest Liaoning aircraft carrier group in recent voyages. In December’s voyage, the group reportedly featured at least six vessels – the Liaoning, a Type 055, a Type 052D, two Type 054As and a Type 901. In another far sea exercise in April 2021, the carrier group also consisted of some six warships – the Liaoning, a Type 055, two Type 052Ds, a Type 054A and a Type 901. Back in 2016 when the Liaoning first had a far sea training in the West Pacific, it had three destroyers, three frigates and a supply ship as escorts.
A Beijing-based military expert who requested anonymity told the Global Times on Tuesday that far sea exercises have already become routine for the Liaoning, as the PLA Navy is making strides to become a deep-blue navy.
Based on previous voyages, after sailing through the Miyako Strait, the Chinese vessels could go further east into the Pacific Ocean, or they could transit through the Bashi Channel south to the island of Taiwan and conduct exercises in the South China Sea, the expert predicted.
The quality and quantity of warships featured in the carrier group – including a whopping five “Chinese Aegis” destroyers – are very impressive and reflect the rapid growth of the PLA Navy, the expert said.
By featuring a number of different types of main battle vessels, the current Liaoning carrier group is a complete group that has significantly higher combat capability than before, Song Zhongping, a Chinese military expert and TV commentator, told the Global Times on Tuesday.
It is possible that the carrier group is also accompanied by underwater forces, Song said.
All far sea exercises are part of preparations for actual combat, and it is certain that aircraft carriers will take part in preparations for a potential military conflict across the Taiwan Straits, Song said.
The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force dispatched the Izumo, a de facto aircraft carrier, as well as P-1 maritime patrol aircraft and P-3C anti-submarine aircraft to gather intelligence and monitor the activities of the Chinese vessels, Japan’s Ministry of Defense Joint Staff said in the press release.
It is almost certain that Japanese and US warships and warplanes will conduct close-in reconnaissance attempts and make some provocative moves on the Chinese flotilla, so the Chinese vessels and vessel-based aircraft must have been well prepared to confidently deal with them, analysts said.
It is the exception rather than the norm for LSTs to carry armament heavier than an autocannon or two, and navies which do equip them more heavily tend to be relatively smaller (i.e.: lacking in escorts to provide supporting fires and air defense).
The armament of a LST should basically be for very minor anti-surface roles, and a very weak last ditch air defense role.
Personally, I'm okay with the idea of providing a slightly more capable air defense system such as an 8 cell HQ-10, if it can be done in a self contained manner without need for excess sensors.
The addition of a gun like 76mm would require deck penetration for its magazine, as well as structural reinforcement, to the extent that you basically have to design a new ship.
I'm not sure why you mention 074A as having a modern structure with a helicopter capability. It's much smaller than the 072 family of LSTs (650 t compared to 4000t+), and the overall configuration of their hull and helipad is basically the same as well.
As it stands, the 072 family of LSTs are pretty much exactly what the PLAN needs.
Opps I meant 072A.
Thornblade
New Member
Yep, the 516 Jiujiang of 053H [Jianghu-I] class frigate, was converted into a fire-support/rocket artillery ship back in 2002. It had 5 sets of 50-tube 122mm MRLs (multiple rocket launchers). It was decommissioned back in June 2018 and retired in her home town, Jiujiang, Jiangxi Province to be used as a museum ship.
Shilao and friend's latest podcast where they discussed Liaoning's CSG at length. Judging from many factors (including Yankee who was like "by my eyes I judge from their waterline that they're loaded to full displacement, should be good for a month") they reckon the group will be out on the pacific for most of this month, coming back at around end of May.
This group will probably be in the news in the near future, personally I am hoping for a visit to Solomon Islands.
This group will probably be in the news in the near future, personally I am hoping for a visit to Solomon Islands.
