Z-9G are good mutirole helo, but they just dun have the range and can't carry enough payload to get the job done. There no argument that China prefer Eurocopter rather than the Russians. However even with help of Eurocopter and the help of commercial civilian helo components, it will still alot of time to develop and fully test a military helo. An increase of Mi-17 as a stop gap before the Chinese built they own ones is the best solution. These Mi-17 can easy be use for other task after the CMH start to take over front line work.
PLA helicopter fleet
- Thread starter isthvan
- Start date
tphuang said:
Tphuang I didn’t say that Mi-26 is small hello I said that they need to purchase at least small batch of them. As I said PLA lacks all types of helicopters and majority of types they have are light or medium helicopters. Nothing in CH-53 class…
Only army helicopters that are useful in any military action are Mi-17 and small batch of S-70 and Z-8 helicopters; also if we look ate the PLA size that fleet is no were near needed level of capabilities…
As I have said before USMC have helicopter fleet that is comparable in size to PLA helicopter fleet but if you look at USMC helicopter inventory you will see much bigger level of capabilities on USMC side.. Again US Army has more Apaches then PLA has helicopters…
Now if we look at the size of the army it becomes quite obvious that regardless of newly delivered Mi-17s PRC still seriously lack transport, support or medivac capabilities not to mention dedicated attack helicopters…
Z-9 versions are good utility helicopters but they don’t have neither payload nor range to support army needs, Z-11 and EC-120 are great for training and light observation helicopters but how many of them are going to armed police, police and other civilian services? Japan army aviation corp. has more then 230 OH-6D and OH-1 helicopters for surveillance and reconnaissance role and size of JSDF is where compared to PLA size?
Chinese attack fleet is made of WZ-9, WZ-11 and few Gazelle helicopters, plus mi-17 can be armed. But do they have armor, range, and ECM suite? There ability to survive on battlefield is quite miserable don’t you agree? And sorry but I think that until WZ-10 becomes available few “Cold War relics” like modernized Mi-24 would be great interim solution( they are armed, armored, cheep and share quite a lot spare parts and maintenance similarities whit Mi-17). They would be definitely better solution then WZ-9… Also you may see that I said that a Mi-28 or Ka-50 purchase is unneeded because WZ-10 should come in the service soon…
Chine is doing right thing cooperating whit Europe on helicopter development and I don’t have doubt that in next 10-15 years we will not discus about this issue but current situation is quite serious… But how long will take for development of new helicopters finish and how long will take for all that new helicopters to come in service in needed numbers?
Rome is not built in one day and the mi-17 fleet can only increase gradually. I'm not going to be counting on Z-8, that program has been very slow to say the least. Not every army is comparable to the US army, so the PLA helo ratio might never go that highisthvan said:
armed police and civilian services? There are far bigger issues in China than not having enough helicopters in the civilian sector.
I'm not sure about that part, since WZ-10 is probably going to start equipping PLA army this year. And either way, I'm sure WZ-9's flight performance has gotten dramatically better with the design change and engine change. And the avionics on Chinese helicopter can't be that bad, since they've been cooperating with Eurocopter for a long time. And if ka-50 isn't worth going after, then why go after Mi-24?
As for the number issue, that's definitely a problem. China hasn't shown the ability to produce helicopters at a fast rate. We read that Harbin produced 7 helicopters in January. That was the record breaking month. Any idea what Eurocopter or Sikorsky or Bell Helicopter are capable of?
tphuang said:
Well I didn’t say that they should buy hundreds of Mi-17 but current fleet is joust to small. I don’t count too much on Z-8, I joust said that they exist.
I quite well understand that PLA isn’t US Army and that helicopter ratio in PLA might never reach that level, but if we look at PRC size and number of troops PLA has current helicopter ratio is joust to small and not only compared to US but compared to almost all western military’s (or Russians).
tphuang said:
So all helicopters are going to military and civilian services aren’t getting any of those helicopters? I’m quite interested in this subject so I would be grateful if you can provide some additional information.
tphuang said:
Wile WZ-9 flight performance might gotten better it is still utility helicopter converted in attack role as interim solution until something better becomes available; it still lacks armor and countermeasure suit to do its job efficiently(especially if we know that range of HJ-8E is around 4000m that puts WZ-9 in range of enemy small range air defenses).
Also you may see that I never mentioned anything about Chinese helicopter avionics because I also think that it must be quite good since it’s developed from European avionics…
Why Hind? It is cheep (how many Hinds you can purchase for price of one Ka-50?); interdiction in service would be quite easier because it shares almost 70% parts whit Mi-17, its armored, has good weapon package and whit cheep upgrade it would be more then capable to provide troop support in all weather conditions… I’m joust suggesting Hind as interim solution until China is able to field enough WZ-10… Nothing more...
Also whit 7 helicopters at month China will face quite few difficulties in fielding adequate number of helicopters in service.
Well I really don’t now production rates for western helicopter manufacturers but I will try to find some data about that.
A little tiny bit off of subject but it does still relate to the Helo and getting those wounded to care so they can fight again or a least train those in the arts of war.
1. it takes around a month to build a good tank or aircraft and maybe a few years to build a warship
2. it takes around 18 years to instill values and intelligence into a human THEN another few years of education be it in collage or a military institution to field a "good" fighting man
So ask yourself is it more valuable to build a helo in a month to then rescue a warrior you have spent 20 years in the making to help your country. As far as the PRC having a vast population this is true but it does not make the human and value he gives on the battlefield any less meaning than that of say a smaller nation like Croatia or Israel.
1. it takes around a month to build a good tank or aircraft and maybe a few years to build a warship
2. it takes around 18 years to instill values and intelligence into a human THEN another few years of education be it in collage or a military institution to field a "good" fighting man
So ask yourself is it more valuable to build a helo in a month to then rescue a warrior you have spent 20 years in the making to help your country. As far as the PRC having a vast population this is true but it does not make the human and value he gives on the battlefield any less meaning than that of say a smaller nation like Croatia or Israel.
according to the latest issue of Kanwa,
the head of P&W Canada said this regarding to the export of helicopter engines to China.
they have signed agreement for at least 50 PT6B-67A and at least 50 PT6B-67C for China. Note, the former is used for Z-8F and the latter is used for Z-10. Z-8F uses 3 engines and Z-10 uses 2. So essentially, we are probably seeing 20 Z-10s and 15 Z-8F coming out in the next year?
the head of P&W Canada said this regarding to the export of helicopter engines to China.
they have signed agreement for at least 50 PT6B-67A and at least 50 PT6B-67C for China. Note, the former is used for Z-8F and the latter is used for Z-10. Z-8F uses 3 engines and Z-10 uses 2. So essentially, we are probably seeing 20 Z-10s and 15 Z-8F coming out in the next year?
utelore sez..
Excellent statement. You have to take care of your troops..period. If you don't your morale will suffer. Saving them, transporting them, giving close air suppourt is part of that. That's why the PLA needs many more modern helos of all types. SAR, Attack, ASW and transport. They are out there. The PLA should buy them. They can't wait on the Z-10 variants forever.
Excellent statement. You have to take care of your troops..period. If you don't your morale will suffer. Saving them, transporting them, giving close air suppourt is part of that. That's why the PLA needs many more modern helos of all types. SAR, Attack, ASW and transport. They are out there. The PLA should buy them. They can't wait on the Z-10 variants forever.
tphuang said:
Well buying Mi-26T would be step in right direction. PLA needs some heavy lift helicopters.
Does anybody know does China have some type of CSAR unit? I know that currently they don’t have helicopters suitable for that role (while some Mi-171 can be used for that role they would be only stopgap measure), but they could modified some of helicopters they currently use.
Also does anybody know what helicopters they use to support special operation forces?
sure?isthvan said:
The Mi-26 T is a big heavy transport helo - in my opinion they primer need very agile attack and transport helos to be used in the battle-field.
This big transport unit will be shoot down by enemys in a very short time.
some dates about the chopper see at
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