PLA helicopter fleet

isthvan

Tailgunner
VIP Professional
I have noticed that PLA uses only small number of helicopters compared to PLA size… I mean US Army’s AH-64 fleet is larger then entire PLA helicopter fleet…
PLA helicopter fleet is more comparable to USMC helicopter fleet but compared to USMC fleet PLAN really lacks heavy lift helicopters comparable to CH-53E…
Most capable PLA helicopters are Mi-17 version and those are supplemented only whit light helicopter types?
Also PLA lacks dedicated attack helicopter and recon helicopters comparable to OH-58D.
Now I understand that PLA will acquire new indigenous attack helicopter (WZ-10) and new medium utility helicopter but that still leaves them whiteout any helicopter comparable to CH-53E or CH-47…
Now since Korean War helicopters are one of most important assets in modern warfare and they represent irreplaceable asset in any potential war scenario.
My question is what do you think? Did PLA totally neglected lessons from Korean, Vietnam and recent wars or do you know any examples of Chinese helicopter tactics?
Also I’m interested what would be best solution for future PLA heavy lift helicopter and how do you think that PLA helicopter fleet should improve?
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
isthvan there are several thread on helos on the other discussions. But I will leave this one here.

I have noticed that PLA uses only small number of helicopters compared to PLA size… I mean US Army’s AH-64 fleet is larger then entire PLA helicopter fleet…
PLA helicopter fleet is more comparable to USMC helicopter fleet but compared to USMC fleet PLAN really lacks heavy lift helicopters comparable to CH-53E…
Most capable PLA helicopters are Mi-17 version and those are supplemented only whit light helicopter types?
Also PLA lacks dedicated attack helicopter and recon helicopters comparable to OH-58D

You are 100% correct. The helo situation of the PLA is lacking in every respect....And you did not mention no real vialble modern ASW/SAR helo for the PLAN.

I mentioned in previous discussions that if I were the CNO of the PLAN ASW would be my #1 priorty. But my #2 would be a SAR/ASW helo.

I have no idea why the PLA is behind on procurment of helos. They are readily available from Russia. I think that heavy lift and an modern attack helo is what the PLA needs.

Although not new technology some Ka-50 types would be nice for the PLA side to fullfill that attack role.
ka50_6.jpg
 

isthvan

Tailgunner
VIP Professional
I didn’t mention PLAN lack of helicopters because thread about that already exists… I agree that PLA neglect of helicopter fleet is quite odd and while things are currently improving there is still considerable lack of all helicopter types…
Now since WZ-10 is already under development procurement of Ka-52 or Mi-28 attack helicopters would probably not make to much sense, but I don’t understand why PLA didn’t procure some Mi-24 Hinds to fulfill attack role and enable PLA to gain experience whit attack helicopter usage?
As for heavy lift choppers PLA could use smaller Mi-26 fleet to fulfill that role…

All together I think that current PLA helicopter fleet is joust to stretched even for peace time missions and that whit current number of helicopters they can only support some of there rapid reaction troops and nothing more… As a matter of fact I have impression that PLA uses current helicopter fleet for familiarization whit vertical lift concept and that they still didn’t incorporate vertical lift concept in army?

Or PLA plans to create small professional unit core and use helicopters to support them whit rest of army as some sort of national guard/reserve corp. whit current tactics and equipment?
 

Dongfeng

Junior Member
VIP Professional
China has invested very little into the helicopter industry in the past compared to the investment made in the fixed wing aircraft. The only successful indigenous helicopters built in significant numbers were Z-5 (Mi-4 copy) and Z-9. After the failure of the Z-6 project, and the cancellation of Z-7 project, China totally relied on European technologies, which resulted in Z-8, Z-9, Z-11 and possibly some elements in WZ-10 too.

The PLA probably view helicopters as an area not worth huge investment. It costs a lot to develop (due to its complex mechanism) but only has limited usage. The PLA probably thought they could afford to purchase a small number of foreign-made helicopters just to keep the fleet running. On the army side some military leaders still saw helicopters as some sort of luxury. On the navy side the PLA Navy has plenty of Z-8, Z-9 and Ka-28 for their shipnorne and land-based ASW/SAR operations, so it is not a big issue, yet.
 

isthvan

Tailgunner
VIP Professional
Dongfeng said:
China has invested very little into the helicopter industry in the past compared to the investment made in the fixed wing aircraft. The only successful indigenous helicopters built in significant numbers were Z-5 (Mi-4 copy) and Z-9. After the failure of the Z-6 project, and the cancellation of Z-7 project, China totally relied on European technologies, which resulted in Z-8, Z-9, Z-11 and possibly some elements in WZ-10 too.

The PLA probably view helicopters as an area not worth huge investment. It costs a lot to develop (due to its complex mechanism) but only has limited usage. The PLA probably thought they could afford to purchase a small number of foreign-made helicopters just to keep the fleet running. On the army side some military leaders still saw helicopters as some sort of luxury. On the navy side the PLA Navy has plenty of Z-8, Z-9 and Ka-28 for their shipnorne and land-based ASW/SAR operations, so it is not a big issue, yet.

Well I got same impression… But I would not agree that helicopters have limited usage and if we look at helicopter usage since Korean War it becomes quite clear that PLA lack of helicopters severely limits PLA ability to conduct any kind of modern warfare…
Since China invested heavily in modernization in last two decades it becomes quite odd that they didn’t invest in such important asset…

Acutely Chinese view of helicopters as luxury is quite shortsighted and puts under question PLA ability in modern warfare… I joust don’t see any point in military hardware modernization if you plan to use outdated ww2 tactics.
I know that this probably seems as Chinese underestimation from my side but I really don’t understand some Chinese military moves… In any possible war current helicopter fleet would have hand full whit med. evac. missions only not to mention all other tasks…

Now MIGleader told me that China currently has new Z-8 version under development (Z-8f)… That would make some improvements to Chinese heavy lift capabilities but still doesn’t offer anything in CH-53e rang of capabilities…

Again I don’t understand how someone plans to conduct modern battlefield warfare and completely neglect one of basic assets for it?
 

Nethappy

NO WAR PLS
VIP Professional
Over the pass couple of years, there has be a increase investment into the helicopter industry and a few interesting project has came out such as the WZ-10, CMH and EC 120. If China can contious improving it relationship with European country and gain a increase in European technologies we could be seeing some interesting result.

I believe China is finally realizing it mistake with it view toward helicopter and it trying to improve it situtation.
 

utelore

Junior Member
VIP Professional
outside the thought of using the helo on the battlefield as a weapons platform BUT the use of Helo of getting wounded troops to higher care faster has resulted in the saving of much life. I think instead of around 2,500 deaths in Iraq the U.S would be looking at around 4000 to 5000 without the vast Helo fleet to transport the wounded......cheers ute.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
utelore..Well said. Helo's are essential on the modern battlefield. An indespensible comodity.

Some day the PLA side may be able to do this in mass...

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Nethappy

NO WAR PLS
VIP Professional
Yeah.. I realise this... too

This is enough more improtant for the PLA as they have more infanty then an other army on the planet, without a good medic Ev Helo fleet things can turn real ugly. So investing in light and mid size tatical transport helicopter (CMH and EC 120) is the way to go. Nevertheless I dun think they can be develop or built these help in number in time to address the army and navy growing needs. It would be a good idea to buy a large batch of Helo as a stop gap and gain some extra time developing the indigenous design.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
isthvan said:
I didn’t mention PLAN lack of helicopters because thread about that already exists… I agree that PLA neglect of helicopter fleet is quite odd and while things are currently improving there is still considerable lack of all helicopter types…
Now since WZ-10 is already under development procurement of Ka-52 or Mi-28 attack helicopters would probably not make to much sense, but I don’t understand why PLA didn’t procure some Mi-24 Hinds to fulfill attack role and enable PLA to gain experience whit attack helicopter usage?
As for heavy lift choppers PLA could use smaller Mi-26 fleet to fulfill that role…

All together I think that current PLA helicopter fleet is joust to stretched even for peace time missions and that whit current number of helicopters they can only support some of there rapid reaction troops and nothing more… As a matter of fact I have impression that PLA uses current helicopter fleet for familiarization whit vertical lift concept and that they still didn’t incorporate vertical lift concept in army?

Or PLA plans to create small professional unit core and use helicopters to support them whit rest of army as some sort of national guard/reserve corp. whit current tactics and equipment?

smaller Mi-26? Isn't all Mi-26 pretty huge? I guess there was a report a while back from one of the Chinese magazines of a Chinese purchase of Mi-26. And you see a dramatic increase in the Mi-17 fleet in the recent year, also. But as for attacking helo, it just seems that China is not that respectful of the Russian helicopter technology. They seem to be quite satisfied with Z-9G. And you see quite an increase in the production of Z-9 in the recent year. And of course, you also see an increase in the purchase of EC-120 as trainer. In general, China would much rather develop things with the help of Eurocopter rather than the Russians. Considering the success of Eurocopter in their commercial sales, I think that's a wise decision. Especially since unlike fixed wing aircraft, China actually has access to many of the latest components to helicopters using the guise of civilian purpose. And since WZ-10 is coming in soon, what's the point of getting mi-28 or ka-52, let alone the cold war era Mi-24? WZ-10 doesn't have to be better than those helicopters. It's good enough to do it's job and that's all that matters.
 
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