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voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
It's not cynicism. I'm just not in denial.

We are where we are because of our own mistakes. God didn't screw up, we did.

I'd rather fix our own problems, get united, get better, and kick their ass.
Uniting based on religion or other stuff doesn't work.

Only by interests. Do you see these "Arab" States uniting to support Palestine?
No, in fact they just did the Abraham Accords with Israel
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
Uniting based on religion or other stuff doesn't work.
Unity based on Islam is a Quranic requirement for Muslims. By asking us to abandon this principle, you are basically asking us to abandon Islam. That's not gonna happen. Islam is our primary identity. We are Muslims before we are "Pakistanis", "Arabs", "Iranians", "Turks" etc. The problem is that we got bogged down with this "Sunni" and "Shia" sectarian nonsense.

Even academics like George Saliba have said that this was the true cause of our decline, because this sectarian division is what brought back the pre-Islamic divisions based in ethnicity. Sectarianism was the primary reason why the Ottomans and Persians began their war which triggered our dark age. This is a completely non-controversial academic conclusion, because it's so obvious given our history, when this history isn't being viewed through an Orientalist lens. It's no wonder then, that sectarianism is completely against the Quran which we claim to be following (but aren't following in reality.) Moreover, unity based on Islam is the only thing than can ever possibly work, because there is no other unifying principle for our civilization. We are the most diverse civilization on the planet, by far. The founders of my country of Pakistan knew this fact, which is why Jinnah and Iqbal were completely against sectarianism and refused to subscribe to these "sunni/shia" labels, and described themselves as only "Muslims."

No, in fact they just did the Abraham Accords with Israel
And how's that working out? Is Israel feeling loved by Arabs yet? Like I said, these temporary agreements aren't gonna work for Israel. Making a quick deal with some random sheikh is meaningless when 99% of the population of the same country is against them. It's a dead-end. The reality is that the US is exiting the region, which means the GCC nations are eventually gonna have to repair their relations with both Iran and Turkey. And this long overdue process has already begun:

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voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
And how's that working out? Is Israel feeling loved by Arabs yet? Like I said, these temporary agreements aren't gonna work for Israel. Making a quick deal with some random sheikh is meaningless when 99% of the population of the same country is against them. It's a dead-end. The reality is that the US is exiting the region, which means the GCC nations are eventually gonna have to repair their relations with both Iran and Turkey. And this long overdue process has already begun:
Well yes. The new Iran-Saudi reapproachment is obviously a good step forward.

But lets not forget that meanwhile, Palestine is being left alone with the wolves. Nobody is stepping up to help it. It alone, stands against a country backed by the current hegemon

I have only heard some very small noices from Pakistan and some explosive statements from Erdogan against Israel.

In fact, I would say that in the recent years the only one who follows your principle of "uniting the Muslim" has been Erdogan. I assume you have already seen how Turkey's economy is going recently..
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
You're looking at a very complex situation from a very superficial perspective of a few headlines you saw in the news. This isn't about Erdogan or any one country. If you go an ask the average person on the average street, from anywhere between Morocco and Malaysia, they will all agree that Muslims need to unite. On average, they are also very sympathetic to Palestine and they are very against Israel.

But the problems rooted in sectarianism have caused a multidimensional clusterfuck. It's actually ironically similar to how Europe was during its own "dark age." Remember, this is only the year 1442 in our calendar. We are the youngest civilization on this planet. Where was Europe in its 15th century teenage years? I'll tell you where: In the middle of their "Hundred Years War," burning witches at the stake, while Constantinople fell. They were such a mess that its enemies didn't even bother conquering it all. But they never surrendered, just like we haven't surrendered, despite all the defeats. That's why this game isn't over yet. The tables can turn yet again. Even Fukuyama has admitted now that he was wrong about the "end of history."
 
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voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
You're looking at a very complex situation from a very superficial perspective of a few headlines you saw in the news. This isn't about Erdogan or any one country. If you go an ask the average person on the average street, from anywhere between Morocco and Malaysia, they will all agree that Muslims need to unite. On average, they are also very sympathetic to Palestine and they are very against Israel.

But the problems rooted in sectarianism have caused a multidimensional clusterfuck. It's actually ironically similar to how Europe was during its own "dark age." Remember, this is only the year 1442 in our calendar. We are the youngest civilization on this planet. Where was Europe in its 15th century teenage years? I'll tell you where: In the middle of their "Hundred Years War," burning witches at the stake, while Constantinople fell. They were such a mess that its enemies didn't even consider conquering it all. But they never surrendered, just like we haven't surrendered, despite all the defeats. That's why this game isn't over yet. The tables can turn yet again. Even Fukuyama has admitted now that he was wrong about the "end of history."
My experience is that people who are too much consumed about history dont do anything in their life. Same with countries.

Its all good and dandy to praise your ancestors, but if you start hyping yourself up for your ancestor achievements then you are worse than a worm. The past generations suffered, lost families, and build their own society based upon countless deaths, sufferings, famines, wars, hard work, inequality etc

If after hundred of years, a modern country living in relative peace with so much technology, trade, knowledge etc, cant have (and is not actively progressing forward) a better society than its past glory then the country should commit seppuku and spare us the theatrics.

Get stuck too much on the past glory and soon you will start forgiving the present mistakes
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
Yea, which is why I don't agree with the people who are not introspecting about our own mistakes, but these mistakes began in history which is why history needs to be understood, in order to correct the present and give proper direction to the future. People who only focus on the present can never know who they are, because the present by definition is without context. Such people are often materialistic, without any deep meaning or purpose in their life. They're the ones who should actually commit "sepukku" because their universe is of no ultimate consequence even by their own definition.
 

voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
Yea, which is why I don't agree with the people who are not introspecting about our own mistakes, but these mistakes began in history which is why history needs to be understood, in order to correct the present and give proper direction to the future. People who only focus on the present can never know who they are, because the present by definition is without context. Such people are often materialistic, without any deep meaning or purpose in their life. They're the ones who should actually commit "sepukku" because their universe is of no ultimate consequence even by their own definition.
Never said about not learning about history. I said dont get too much consumed about history and only sincerely praise your ancestors achievements without hyping yourself.

History is ofc of a paramount importance but we should always remember that the Present comes first, and after that history comes in play. This means that the Present should Always been given priority over the past. History though, should be extensively studied and learn from past mistakes to improve ourselves for the present

What the Europeans were at the past is irrelevant to what they are now. When the EU negotiates nobody calls them "crusaders". That was another era. People should start living in the present and let their anscestors rest in peace.
 

bobdole

New Member
Registered Member
Erdogan future seems bleak. Saudi weak without the hegemon. Seems iran in best position to potentially lead the muslim world. Tho I doubt the arabs and turks will ever accept that.
 

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