Pakistan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Trying to not to get too topic with the J-35A fighter (PLAAF) + FC-31 thread, so responding here instead.

sf7pakistan said:

I'm sure that maybe this is mentioned in articles and such but from what I've been able to gather, the payment plan is more or less "pay us when you can".

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Would you say these "pay us when you can" terms are applicable to some, most or all current Chinese defense exports to Pakistan?

Hermes said:

Anyone who doesn’t follow economic news very closely would say that, not your fault.

So basically there’s been news of $3.7bn loan rollover since the past 2 weeks which the Chinese gov has assured. PM Shahbaz is gonna visit China on 15-16 June.

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sf7pakistan said:

Often times part of that payment too is either deferred or waived and that is on top of the price that we get on the stuff which I've heard is usually discounted.

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Interestingly, the Government of Pakistan's tweet concerning Beijing's offer of the J-35 and other weapons systems to Islamabad also mentions the "deferment" of $3.7 billion in debt:


From what I've been able to gather, some or all of that $3.7 billion is and lent directly to the State Bank of Pakistan, and every two years or so.

Apparently some of these loans, perhaps amounting to $1.3 billion or so, was disbursed to Pakistan by March 2021, a few months before Pakistan's J-10C order was announced in June 2021:

Between October 2020 and February 2021, Industrial and Commercial Bank of China (ICBC) issued three loans worth $1.3 billion to the State Bank of Pakistan (SBP) for the same purpose and with identical borrowing terms. On October 29, 2020, ICBC provided a $500 million loan to the State Bank of Pakistan to shore up the country’s foreign exchange reserves (as captured via Project ID#92625). The loan carried the following borrowing terms: an interest rate of 3-month LIBOR plus a 2.75% margin and a 2-year maturity. The loan was fully disbursed by March 2021. Then, on January 21, 2021, ICBC provided a $500 million loan to the State Bank of Pakistan to shore up the country’s foreign exchange reserves (as captured via Project ID#92624). The loan carried the following borrowing terms: an interest rate of 3-month LIBOR plus a 2.75% margin and a 2-year maturity. The loan was fully disbursed by March 2021. On February 22, 2021, ICBC provided a $300 million loan to the State Bank of Pakistan to shore up the country’s foreign exchange reserves (as captured via Project ID#92619). The loan carried the following borrowing terms: an interest rate of 3-month LIBOR plus a 2.75% margin and a 2-year maturity. The loan was fully disbursed by March 2021.

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Not to say these loans were necessarily issued by ICBC to finance the acquisition of the J-10C as there are a number of other reasons as to why Beijing would want to extend credit to Islamabad, but the timing will inevitably provoke some people's curiosities.

Hermes said:

The $3.7bn is basically for the order of these systems and it seems that the order has been placed far before as there’s a rollover now.

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So does this $3.7 billion or a portion thereof represent an open credit facility from Beijing to Islamabad for procuring Chinese arms?

AlexYe said:

the Borg will assimilate you into the Jai-hind Collective, resistance is futile


Well we can be sure of the deal to acquire the FC=31/j35's whichever since PAF posted about it themselves,
Maybe the KJ500's are the upgrades to the ZDK-03 instead of fully new KJ500's?
No idea about HQ19.

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ZDK-03s are dead as far as AWACS role is concerned. PAF wasn't too happy with the performance of the system as it was a PESA radar and it wasn't even able to play second fiddle to the Erieyes. The thing became more of a liability before this stuff about them being converted into EW platforms, last I got to know about them was that they were being retired. High likelihood that the KJ-500 would be new airframes.

zyklon said:

Trying to not to get too topic with the J-35A fighter (PLAAF) + FC-31 thread, so responding here instead.



Would you say these "pay us when you can" terms are applicable to some, most or all current Chinese defense exports to Pakistan?





Interestingly, the Government of Pakistan's tweet concerning Beijing's offer of the J-35 and other weapons systems to Islamabad also mentions the "deferment" of $3.7 billion in debt:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1930903310384439604

From what I've been able to gather, some or all of that $3.7 billion is

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

and lent directly to the State Bank of Pakistan, and

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

every two years or so.

Apparently some of these loans, perhaps amounting to $1.3 billion or so, was disbursed to Pakistan by March 2021, a few months before Pakistan's J-10C order was announced in June 2021:



Not to say these loans were necessarily issued by ICBC to finance the acquisition of the J-10C as there are a number of other reasons as to why Beijing would want to extend credit to Islamabad, but the timing will inevitably provoke some people's curiosities.



So does this $3.7 billion or a portion thereof represent an open credit facility from Beijing to Islamabad for procuring Chinese arms?

Click to expand...

My bad. I was just too excited at the time and missed out on the detail.

I believe the $3.7bn is just an unrelated loan deferment, probably not related to the acquisitions, and even if related to them, could be a part of the price.

The pattern GOV tweet was following was “One line for one country, include all the achievements from that country in the same line” due to which we made wrong assumptions that $3.7bn is the cost for these acquisitions.

The cost could be higher as we don’t know the number of KJ-500s, HQ-19 Battalions involved.

zyklon said:

Trying to not to get too topic with the J-35A fighter (PLAAF) + FC-31 thread, so responding here instead.



Would you say these "pay us when you can" terms are applicable to some, most or all current Chinese defense exports to Pakistan?





Interestingly, the Government of Pakistan's tweet concerning Beijing's offer of the J-35 and other weapons systems to Islamabad also mentions the "deferment" of $3.7 billion in debt:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1930903310384439604

From what I've been able to gather, some or all of that $3.7 billion is

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

and lent directly to the State Bank of Pakistan, and

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

every two years or so.

Apparently some of these loans, perhaps amounting to $1.3 billion or so, was disbursed to Pakistan by March 2021, a few months before Pakistan's J-10C order was announced in June 2021:



Not to say these loans were necessarily issued by ICBC to finance the acquisition of the J-10C as there are a number of other reasons as to why Beijing would want to extend credit to Islamabad, but the timing will inevitably provoke some people's curiosities.



So does this $3.7 billion or a portion thereof represent an open credit facility from Beijing to Islamabad for procuring Chinese arms?

Click to expand...

This is my best guess but I'd say that you could maybe chalk most of the big ticket items into the "pay when you can" scheme. And even if they aren't, the Chinese have been very understanding of our situation (sucks to say that this has been the case) and they value the strategic partnership over coming round and banging our door for the money they're owed.

Pakistan is in many regards the test case for not only Chinese systems but the Chinese order or their way of doing things. Legitimacy is key here and since China doesn't do formal alliances like the US, a healthy defence partnership with Pakistan is in my view a major selling point to prospective buyers showing them that China wouldn't cut her losses and run off.

If you see this whole thing in that terms then the relationship is mutually beneficial. And putting all the quid-pro-quos and the mutual strategic interests aside China has been very nice to us even at times when it might not be in her best interests to be. There's a lot of mutual trust and goodwill involved and certainly both countries feel that they rely upon each other to some extent. That whole "propaganda" about Pakistan-China friendship carries some truth in my opinion. So there's that whole another aspect of the partnership that you have to keep in mind when trying to understand Pakistan and China's military relations.

zyklon said:

Trying to not to get too topic with the J-35A fighter (PLAAF) + FC-31 thread, so responding here instead.



Would you say these "pay us when you can" terms are applicable to some, most or all current Chinese defense exports to Pakistan?





Interestingly, the Government of Pakistan's tweet concerning Beijing's offer of the J-35 and other weapons systems to Islamabad also mentions the "deferment" of $3.7 billion in debt:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1930903310384439604

From what I've been able to gather, some or all of that $3.7 billion is

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

and lent directly to the State Bank of Pakistan, and

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

every two years or so.

Apparently some of these loans, perhaps amounting to $1.3 billion or so, was disbursed to Pakistan by March 2021, a few months before Pakistan's J-10C order was announced in June 2021:



Not to say these loans were necessarily issued by ICBC to finance the acquisition of the J-10C as there are a number of other reasons as to why Beijing would want to extend credit to Islamabad, but the timing will inevitably provoke some people's curiosities.



So does this $3.7 billion or a portion thereof represent an open credit facility from Beijing to Islamabad for procuring Chinese arms?

Click to expand...

As for the applicability of loans for defense equipment, We have to look at it from a different lense.

Pakistan is home to huge chinese investments, future strategic and geopolitical importance and also happens to be the only high capable arch rival of China’s nearest enemy, India.

$4-$5bn loans or even higher are a good bargain for China to keep India in check as well as increase its influence in the Arabian sea/Indian ocean in the future.

Besides, PAF has been a good help for AVIC in the early days and their cooperation is beyond borders.

Whatever happened to the proposed Z-10ME purchase?

sf7pakistan said:

ZDK-03s are dead as far as AWACS role is concerned. PAF wasn't too happy with the performance of the system as it was a PESA radar and it wasn't even able to play second fiddle to the Erieyes. The thing became more of a liability before this stuff about them being converted into EW platforms, last I got to know about them was that they were being retired. High likelihood that the KJ-500 would be new airframes.

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I did hear that they gutted them out and turned into EW platforms, Maybe we dont know but they arent actually retired but turned to the role as the DA-20's /blinders squadrons are doing.
The KJ500's bit is odd because after PAF got its last SAAB awacs last year, they put forth 'more interest' toward SAAB to get more of them.

Maikeru said:

Whatever happened to the proposed Z-10ME purchase?

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Trueeeeeee, among all the other stuff the heli's got forgotten...

AlexYe said:

Well we can be sure of the deal to acquire the FC=31/j35's whichever since PAF posted about it themselves,
Maybe the KJ500's are the upgrades to the ZDK-03 instead of fully new KJ500's?
No idea about HQ19.

Click to expand...

Yeah, all of these platform's FC-31/J-35, KJ-500s, and even the ZDK-03 upgrades have been known for a while, well before any recent tensions/clashes. HQ-19 remains the only real unknown in terms of confirmed deployment or capability.

As for the J-35, it still seems a couple of years away from entering service, so nothing immediate on that front. Right now, the clear priority is completing the remaining J-10C deliveries and possibly expanding the fleet.

That said, the rest feels like narrative management, mostly hollow rhetoric and superficial posturing by what’s effectively a proxy setup under the PML-N banner.

Could be it was already under consideration/talks but recent clash and the missile hits pushed it ahead, priority bumped up.
it would make sense.
And normally they dont announce things like this at all, so i am assuming the fact they announced it/media is reporting it,
its already a done deal/finalized

AlexYe said:

I did hear that they gutted them out and turned into EW platforms, Maybe we dont know but they arent actually retired but turned to the role as the DA-20's /blinders squadrons are doing.
The KJ500's bit is odd because after PAF got its last SAAB awacs last year, they put forth 'more interest' toward SAAB to get more of them.

Click to expand...

As previously mentioned, the "Blinders" squadron is equipped with 6 to 8 DA-20s, which will soon be complemented by 4 Stand-Off Jammers (SOJs), based on Bombardier Global 6000 jets, 2 of which are currently in Turkey undergoing conversion.

While no new KJ-500s are expected, it’s likely that the retired ZDKs will be upgraded to KJ-500 or KJ-700 standards. Overall, our AWACS fleet remains robust, with 10 to 12 Erieye units, including 4 of the extended-range (ER) variant.