Next Generation DDG and FFG thread (after 055, 052D, 054B)

[AndrewS]

Would HHQ-16 really be sufficient for self-defense and escort? IMO, to be future proof you need some sort of medium-long range or even long-range SAM to provide protection from future threats. 32 850mm VLS or whatever new standard VLS (950mm?) should be sufficient in my opinion. Larger VLS can also provide the option to use larger ASW weapons.

What future threats do you envision?

Remember that a fundamental limitation is the radar horizon.
For a long range SAM, an aircraft can just duck below the radar horizon and disappear.

And the most effective ASW weapon is the Helicopter.

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For operations within the 1IC, at a minimum, we can expect air cover from land-based aircraft.

For operations past the 1IC, I'd expect Destroyers and carrier air cover

 

[Tomboy]

What future threats do you envision?

Remember that a fundamental limitation is the radar horizon.
For a long range SAM, an aircraft can just duck below the radar horizon and disappear.

And the most effective ASW weapon is the Helicopter.

---

For operations within the 1IC, at a minimum, we can expect air cover from land-based aircraft.

For operations past the 1IC, I'd expect Destroyers and carrier air cover

FREMM and Constellation are designed to be able to fully defend themselves during independent operations, I don't see why new Chinese frigates will not have that feature. I say defending itself independently from antiship missiles and aircraft within a reasonable range is a bare minimum requirement. ASW operation within the 1IC can be literally done by anything, drones, 056s, etc. Frigates and above should be dedicated mostly to blue water operations deep in the 2IC and beyond.

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

I am not sure if that is a warship. Another picture I took couple weeks ago.

Looks strange, so IMO might be civilian ship?

That's certainly a civilian ship. Looks to be a cargo/carrier ship. I suppose that settles the case for Hudong-Zhonghua.

 

[4Tran]

The purpose of modern frigates is to perform specialized missions away from the rest of the fleet, without having to resort to large ships like destroyers. If you're going to build frigates the size of destroyers, then it'd have been better to just build more destroyers to begin with. The LCS ships, for all their many many faults, at least understood this part. That the main roles for smaller vessels are ASW, minesweeping, and the occasional surface combat (mainly to fend off smaller vessels). These roles are crucial, but you don't want to allocate destoyers to performing them because it's a waste of resources and because an isolated destroyer is far too vulnerable to attack.

FREMM and Constellation are designed to be able to fully defend themselves during independent operations, I don't see why new Chinese frigates will not have that feature. I say defending itself independently from antiship missiles and aircraft within a reasonable range is a bare minimum requirement. ASW operation within the 1IC can be literally done by anything, drones, 056s, etc. Frigates and above should be dedicated mostly to blue water operations deep in the 2IC and beyond.

I think that the ability to "fully defend themselves" is junk. No vessel by itself is going to be able to do that with any consistency, and insisting on this capability is designing ships wrong. Burkes can't do it, Ticonderogas can't do it, and there's no damned way that FREMMs or Constellations are going to be able to do it.

In any case, FREMMs are already too big to really work as frigates. A more limited navy has a use for a more general purpose frigate to act as mini-destroyers, but this isn't the case for the PLAN. And Constellations are just silly. By the time the design is finalized, it'll probably be a bigger ship than a 052! At that point, the USN should have just bought more Burkes and admit that they're just going to have to live with a 0 frigate navy.

 

[Tomboy]

I think that the ability to "fully defend themselves" is junk. No vessel by itself is going to be able to do that with any consistency, and insisting on this capability is designing ships wrong. Burkes can't do it, Ticonderogas can't do it, and there's no damned way that FREMMs or Constellations are going to be able to do it.

In any case, FREMMs are already too big to really work as frigates. A more limited navy has a use for a more general purpose frigate to act as mini-destroyers, but this isn't the case for the PLAN. And Constellations are just silly. By the time the design is finalized, it'll probably be a bigger ship than a 052! At that point, the USN should have just bought more Burkes and admit that they're just going to have to live with a 0 frigate navy.

You are confusing capability with consistency, Constellation could carry SM-6s and come with a capable radar set. It definitely has the capability to defend itself independently against threats, now how good SM-6 is and how consistent is it is a whole other discussion but the importance here is capability.

052s are not a good comparison because they are just tiny destroyers. Very cramped for crews on long voyages and compared to basically every modern western destroyer, ridiculously firepower dense. PLAN is clearly opting for much larger vessels for each class now that propulsion and doctrine is no longer a bottleneck. There is a good chance that the next gen frigate will end up similar in size to FREMM as said by SOYO.

 

[4Tran]

You are confusing capability with consistency, Constellation could carry SM-6s and come with a capable radar set. It definitely has the capability to defend itself independently against threats, now how good SM-6 is and how consistent is it is a whole other discussion but the importance here is capability.

052s are not a good comparison because they are just tiny destroyers. Very cramped for crews on long voyages and compared to basically every modern western destroyer, ridiculously firepower dense. PLAN is clearly opting for much larger vessels for each class now that propulsion and doctrine is no longer a bottleneck. There is a good chance that the next gen frigate will end up similar in size to FREMM as said by SOYO.

My point is that if the USN is only satisfied with ships with destroyer-like capabilities, then it should build destroyers. China seems to want ships with frigate-like capabilities so they're going to build frigates. Sure, strictly speaking role is more than size, but if you're going to stretch roles that far, you might as well build the ship you actually want.

My main issue with FREMM is that its increased capabilities don't make it any better at being a frigate. It's effectivly making it better at the wrong kind of jobs, and that's not really the way you want to design warships. And if one were to be caught out by itself in the open sea, I doubt that it's going to be any more survivable than a smaller frigate.

 

[vincent]

Just because US Navy does it doesn’t mean it is the right thing to do.

 

[lcloo]

A warship no matter how capable and independent will be in trouble if it sails by itself without any fleet or land support (or with a lone but powerful companion as in Battle to sink Bismarck) . Take the example of battleship Bismarck and heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen, two of the most powerful warship in WW2.

A fleet of various type of warships, large and small can be more effective, in Battle of Bismarck the obsolete Fairey Swordfish biplane torpedo bomber (designed in early 1930s) gave fatal blows to Bismarck, and the small destroyers did their jobs well, together with the battleships and heavy cruisers of Royal Navy.

Numbers still reign over quality, especially the opponent is a lone ship or two.

Building more frigates like type 054A and its successors like type 057 is the right move, and fleet action is better than a one ship mission no matter how advance that one ship is.

 

[AndrewS]

FREMM and Constellation are designed to be able to fully defend themselves during independent operations, I don't see why new Chinese frigates will not have that feature. I say defending itself independently from antiship missiles and aircraft within a reasonable range is a bare minimum requirement. ASW operation within the 1IC can be literally done by anything, drones, 056s, etc. Frigates and above should be dedicated mostly to blue water operations deep in the 2IC and beyond.

Please describe what those independent Frigate operations look like in some detail.

 

[Tomboy]

Please describe what those independent Frigate operations look like in some detail.

Capable of conducting long patrols in blue water conditions without having to constantly rely on a nearby fleet.

Building more frigates like type 054A and its successors like type 057 is the right move, and fleet action is better than a one ship mission no matter how advance that one ship is.

I don't understand the obsession over small size of frigates?? 054A is clearly not built and designed for prolonged blue water deployments, why are people so against from building larger frigates that can house crews more comfortably and carry more supplies for longer range? People on weibo clearly agrees with me on needing larger cleansheet designs with blue water operations designed in mind from the get go.