New Type98/99 MBT thread

[KampfAlwin]

One point to note is that PLA equipment always seems to modernize more rapidly than doctrine. But this isn't always a bad thing.

Like the PLAN for example - they invested heavily into advanced anti-ship missiles like the YJ-12A and YJ-18 for an asymmetric edge over powerful adversaries. It was only after these were developed that doctrine shifted to focus more on air-sea operations and air defense with the UVLS on the 052D and 055. Even today, the PLAN does not have a multi-pack SAM for surface combatants and so they have a lot of catching up to do now that they have updated their doctrine. But on the positive side, it was only because they pursued a deviant doctrine in the past, that the PLAN has ASuMs like YJ-12A and YJ-18 while NATO navies are stuck with the vintage Harpoon.

I suspect we will see the same development for PLA equipment. Right now, tanks like the 99A are the ultimate expression of classic PLA doctrine - extreme focus on frontal protection, more so than any other MBT in its weight class. Maybe one day they will consider the need for urban warfare and modify doctrine accordingly. And then we might see improved side protection for a 99B variant. It could be a simple as standardizing existing upgrade options into a full package, such as blundling together the rumored 1800 HP powerplant, FY-5 ERA on the side skirts, remote weapons station, the new suspension technology from the ZTQ-15, a hard-kill APS, or maybe even the 125mm L/52, although the longer barrel would be detrimental in urban combat.

The real question is if the PLA is willing to pay for it. If they get the budget and determination to upgrade the MBTs further, they might decide to work on the Type 96 first.

Judging by how long it takes for new tank variants to emerge, we might see a 99B this decade. Afterall, the PLA likes to upgrade their weapon systems to get as much mileage out of them(Type 59s, J-7s etc)

 

[FishWings]

Nozh is definitely better than Kontakt-5, but I wouldn't say it has 'great' performance. In the Donbass conflict, Nozh on T-64BMs were in some cases defeated by 'military surplus' T-72BAs. It should be noted that those T-72s do not have the AZ-184M autoloader, so it means they were limited to old Soviet-era projectiles and not the newer (and longer i.e. better) APFSDS. Those still managed to knock turrets off Bulats anyway, despite Nozh advertised as being capable of reducing APFSDS effectiveness up to 90%.

Btw @Fantastic202 the image of Relikt you had posted which showed the side turret of T-72B3'2016 is not actually Relikt I believe, but rather 4S24 designed originally for lighter AFVs but somehow made its way on the new 'Big Three' of modernized Russian MBTs.

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In any case, there does exist a FY-2SH as I mentioned before in a previous comment. It has not been seen on VT-4, but possibly seem on VT-5 and other AFVs for export. Therefore it is only reasonable to believe that a similar (if not identical) package exists for ZTZ-99 and ZTZ-99A in case they are needed.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273875043760705537

 

[Fantastic202]

Nozh is definitely better than Kontakt-5, but I wouldn't say it has 'great' performance. In the Donbass conflict, Nozh on T-64BMs were in some cases defeated by 'military surplus' T-72BAs. It should be noted that those T-72s do not have the AZ-184M autoloader, so it means they were limited to old Soviet-era projectiles and not the newer (and longer i.e. better) APFSDS. Those still managed to knock turrets off Bulats anyway, despite Nozh advertised as being capable of reducing APFSDS effectiveness up to 90%.

Btw @Fantastic202 the image of Relikt you had posted which showed the side turret of T-72B3'2016 is not actually Relikt I believe, but rather 4S24 designed originally for lighter AFVs but somehow made its way on the new 'Big Three' of modernized Russian MBTs.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

In any case, there does exist a FY-2SH as I mentioned before in a previous comment. It has not been seen on VT-4, but possibly seem on VT-5 and other AFVs for export. Therefore it is only reasonable to believe that a similar (if not identical) package exists for ZTZ-99 and ZTZ-99A in case they are needed.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273875043760705537

Nozh should theoretically be a very good ERA module, but the T-64's used in combat are all BV models running with Kontakt-1 modules and suffer the same issues as the T-72's with the older limited ammo racks. Mostly due to the fact that Ukraine is still economically unviable with all their most advanced tanks being in the back line and only used in parades.

While you are right in the Relikt in reguards to there being light variants and heavy variants, the T-72B3 2016 runs with Relikt units on the side and Kontakt-5 on the UFP and turret face [Fig 1;] as a replacement for the older T90A style Kontakt-5 plates giving it a much better ERA protection over the ammo rack.
There have been BMP-3's mounted with a similar apperance to Relikt ERA but this if defined under the Kaktus package (again with the constant K's in Russain spelling) overall similar to things like the T-72B3's load out with Kontakt-5 on the turret and the lighter form of Relikt on the UFP and sides [Fig 2; & Fig 3;]

[Fig 1;] With Relikt on the sides.


[Fig 2;]



[Fig 3;]

 

[Fantastic202]

Judging by how long it takes for new tank variants to emerge, we might see a 99B this decade. Afterall, the PLA likes to upgrade their weapon systems to get as much mileage out of them(Type 59s, J-7s etc)

I wonder what they would change though, Maybe a new engine and a longer 125? I can't imagine them using the new liquid propellant guns they've been developing on anything but a new tank.

 

[FishWings]

Nozh should theoretically be a very good ERA module, but the T-64's used in combat are all BV models running with Kontakt-1 modules and suffer the same issues as the T-72's with the older limited ammo racks. Mostly due to the fact that Ukraine is still economically unviable with all their most advanced tanks being in the back line and only used in parades.

While you are right in the Relikt in reguards to there being light variants and heavy variants, the T-72B3 2016 runs with Relikt units on the side and Kontakt-5 on the UFP and turret face [Fig 1;] as a replacement for the older T90A style Kontakt-5 plates giving it a much better ERA protection over the ammo rack.
There have been BMP-3's mounted with a similar apperance to Relikt ERA but this if defined under the Kaktus package (again with the constant K's in Russain spelling) overall similar to things like the T-72B3's load out with Kontakt-5 on the turret and the lighter form of Relikt on the UFP and sides [Fig 2; & Fig 3;]

[Fig 1;] With Relikt on the sides.
View attachment 69933

[Fig 2;]
View attachment 69934


[Fig 3;]
View attachment 69935

There have also been a good number of T-64BMs i.e. Bulats destroyed in Donbass. Here are some



Artillery is the main killer of all tanks in Donbass ofc, including Bulats. Nonetheless, some Bulats have been shot (through Nozh) and destroyed by not only modernised T-72B3 but also much older T-72B'89, T-72B1, and T-72BA. None of the latter three can carry newer Russian APFSDS in their old autoloaders, so either they were really lucky shots that somehow landed where Nozh is not as effective (but hit Nozh anyway), or Nozh is less than what's advertised.

 

[Fantastic202]

There have also been a good number of T-64BMs i.e. Bulats destroyed in Donbass. Here are some

View attachment 69940View attachment 69941View attachment 69942View attachment 69943View attachment 69944View attachment 69945

Artillery is the main killer of all tanks in Donbass ofc, including Bulats. Nonetheless, some Bulats have been shot (through Nozh) and destroyed by not only modernised T-72B3 but also much older T-72B'89, T-72B1, and T-72BA. None of the latter three can carry newer Russian APFSDS in their old autoloaders, so either they were really lucky shots that somehow landed where Nozh is not as effective (but hit Nozh anyway), or Nozh is less than what's advertised.

Rather hard to tell where there might have been impact points but it is food for thought. Nozh is supposed to be a direct upgrade to Kontakt-5 with a upgrade to it's performace against Tandem warheads.

 

[gelgoog]

There have also been a good number of T-64BMs i.e. Bulats destroyed in Donbass. Here are some

View attachment 69940View attachment 69941View attachment 69942View attachment 69943View attachment 69944View attachment 69945

Artillery is the main killer of all tanks in Donbass ofc, including Bulats.
...

Krasnopol laser-guided artillery is God. China also has this.

 

[Broccoli]

There have also been a good number of T-64BMs i.e. Bulats destroyed in Donbass. Here are some

View attachment 69940View attachment 69941View attachment 69942View attachment 69943View attachment 69944View attachment 69945

Artillery is the main killer of all tanks in Donbass ofc, including Bulats. Nonetheless, some Bulats have been shot (through Nozh) and destroyed by not only modernised T-72B3 but also much older T-72B'89, T-72B1, and T-72BA. None of the latter three can carry newer Russian APFSDS in their old autoloaders, so either they were really lucky shots that somehow landed where Nozh is not as effective (but hit Nozh anyway), or Nozh is less than what's advertised.

Could be anti-tank submunitions instead of direct strike.

 

[Broccoli]

Krasnopol laser-guided artillery is God. China also has this.

Anti-tank submunitions fired from tube artillery and mrls are more effective when targeting large armor groups, that's why it's not smart to park all your tanks near each others when fighting against large nation, for example one 122mm rocket can haul large number of shaped charges.

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[FishWings]

Krasnopol laser-guided artillery is God. China also has this.

Ye it definitely knocked some out in Donbass. Additionally, Krasnopol was used in Syria to destroy FSA/ISIS tanks, and even some Turkish M60TMs. MLRS is especially effective against concentrated armored formations. Grad rockets (and possibly Smerch) were far more devastating against UA armor, with the Zelenopillya attack alone dealing crippling losses to one brigade.

In any case, let's go back OT.