New Type98/99 MBT thread

alanch90

New Member
Registered Member
V-92 is indeed a member of a huge V-2 family, but calling 1130 hp V-92S2F a modernized version of 500 hp V-2 is a stretch.
It's coupled with a new automatic transmission.

Hp/ton ratio is comparable to 1300 hp-powered VT-4(and significantly below 1500 hp one), since T-90MS and T-90M are lighter.
Nonetheless, both are still within the gauge of modern tank power2weight ratio.


Russian commander's sights are essentially the only ones in the world w/o a direct optical channel.
It's a hefty price tag for convenience...

The weak point is the transmission, the engine while providing Hp/t somewhat comparable to other modern tanks is at the very limit of its design. The transmission is very limited, i do understand the logic behind it though. Modern transmission are much more expensive, for the russians (and most of the customers they predict), the change to a more modern one isn't worth it. Nonetheless, some years ago Renk developed a very interesting powerpack consisting of a V-2 type engine coupled with a modern transmission. The benefits are many to the mobility characteristics overall, the russians could have easily designed something similar, cheaper and better if they wanted to.


The other part, about the lack of direct vision from the CITV i didn't understand. To my knowledge most of the CITV don't offer such a direct optical channel and in the russian case, the commander already has a very nice cupola with 8 periscopes (which are linked to the CITV in a rather ingenious way, the commander can slave the CITV in the direction of any of the periscopes at the push of a button which is very handy in close range).
 

berserk

Junior Member
Registered Member
How is it "my" opinion when I simply took the figures other members (including you) gave? Even you said a couple of pages ago the VT-4 probably matches the 90S armor. You also confirmed India doesn't even have the Svinets-2. And then you mentioned some hypothetical sabot that your army doesn't even have yet (and probably won't for 5-10 years.) You also made other random claims that you refused to defend, e.g. "superior FCS."

Also, stop with these strawman fallacies. No one here is claiming the VT-4 is better than the T-90MS. I never said that either. The general consensus here is that they are both comparable MBTs overall, which means victory will go to the side with better tactics and intel. If you don't want to accept this, by all means, keep going berserk like a lunatic, it's fun to watch someone totally losing their sh*t.
General consensus is not that they are comparable MBT. It's only in Chinese fanboys head and latest being Pakistani that's it's a new wonder weapon. I just gave you best case scenario when i said it may matches T 90S protection level to keep you lot happy lol , while It's protection level is poor and is comparable to now upgraded T 72 in Russian and in indian service. nothing special about it.
.Many of you claims are still left without any kind of evidence or even attempt at demonstration (like your claims about the base armor of VT-4). But alas, i shall clarify some of you misconceptions:
what claim , without evidence ? . It's a fact that it's base armour is same as older Type 96A it's not going to increase magically now would it. BTA 4 APFSDS penetration is well known... 220mm at 68°5. That's slightly better than upgraded mango fired from T 72, T 90 lol, again nothing special.
.
- No, FY-IV is certainly not "Kontakt 5". K5 was already copied in the form of FY-II years ago. FY-IV is an indigenous chinese development. It is described in a chinese service manual as being equivalent to 180mm of RHA vs APFSDS (manual says "30 percent of reduction of APFSDS capable of penetrating 600mm"), in addition of being effective against tandem HEAT warheads. In comparison, Kontakt 5 is equal to 120mm of RHA vs APFSDS (Nii Stali official material says "additional 20 percent of effectiveness of tanks such as T-72B and T-90" both tanks can be represented as 600mm of steel armor equivalent), and on the other hand Kontakt 5 is not effective at all against tandem HEAT. Relikt on the other hand is equal to 240mm of RHA vs APFSDS and is effective vs tandem HEAT.
Yes FY-4 at best case scenario is kontakt 5 copy nothing more and even if take your 180mm RHA vs APFSDS , along with 600mm base armour that's total of 780mm protection. around same as upgraded T 72 in Russian and in indian service lmao! an no kontakt 5 does not provide 120mm protection must be old one from 80s. It's like saying mango APFSDS from 80s has same DOP of 460mm when all its clone and improved version are touching almost 600mm.
this is indian upgraded T 72 with ERA MK2 ( improved kontakt 5 copy).

s0d8DQ2.jpg
IMG_20201020_145926.jpg

Protection level is same as VT 4 , probably better lmao!.
 
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berserk

Junior Member
Registered Member
Here how i would rank these tanks by comparison.
T 90M Proryv 3 > T 90MS > T 90S > T 72( upgrade version ) = VT 4.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
Modern transmission are much more expensive, for the russians (and most of the customers they predict), the change to a more modern one isn't worth it.
T-90MS/T-90M have a new transmission.(finally, hallelujah!)
There was some logic behind it in the past, but currently, it's but unnecessary torture of a driver, as well as handicapping of tactical mobility.

To my knowledge most of the CITV don't offer such a direct optical channel

Erm, they do. Corresponding single/twin oculars right under the commander's sight are everywhere.
For example, type 99A:
2017563_800.jpg

or, since we're at it, VT-4:
731570_original.jpg

Even when they have to move panoramic sight, they don't move it far and keep a direct optical link, like this(PERI as an example):
PERI.jpg
My personal guess is that with the next-gen tank being devoid of direct sights anyways(downside of crew capsule), Russian view/experience on its necessity simply shifted. But for others, not so much.
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
Yes FY-4 at best case scenario is kontakt 5 copy nothing more

... right, and we're biased?

Let's examine the evidence that you yourself provided (again.) Note the bricks in your picture, you can see clearly the thickness of the "ERA MK2 ( improved kontakt 5 copy)" in the spacing on the turret and on the front hull:

1603195844070.png

Now compare that thickness to the FY-IV (look at those three bricks on the front hull):
Chinese VT4 tanks fitted with FY IV ERA Explosive Reactive Armour against Tandem Warhead ammunition 925 002


Does that look like a "copy" to you? That's 85mm (over 3 inches) of steel and C4, which is clearly way thicker than the thin plates on your "copy" of K5. Only a person blinded by extreme bias would claim that these two are equal.

Source:
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dawn_strike

New Member
Registered Member
I just need to clarify some stuff going around. DIscussing if VT-4 is better or worse than T-90MS is not entirely related as to which one has the advantage in a frontal combat.
In that respect, i would say that while T-90MS can resist frontally any APFSDS offered by the chinese, the russians DON'T OFFER Svinets 1-2 for export either (these can penetrate 700 and 600mm at 2km according to NIMI and can defeat ERA, making them equivalents to most of the newest western APFSDS, M829A3, DM53/63, etc.). The best APFSDS the russians are offering is Lekalo/Mango-M which like Svinets has special features to defeat 2nd gen ERA (Kontakt 5, FY-II) but has inferior penetration capabilities, being limited to less than 600mm (580mm to be precise, according to NIMI export catalogues) at 2km. While we don´t know the effectiveness of VT-4 base armor, i would be VERY surprised if it wasn't in the 600-700 range, without accounting for the ERA. So, while Lekalo/Mango-M can defeat the FY-II ERA featured in VT-4 sold to countries other than Pakistan, it most likely still won't be enough to completely defeat frontally the tank. If we are talking about the latest VT-4 as offered to Pakistan, the odds are even more in favor of this tank, as it features FY-IV ERA, which is classified as a 3rd gen type, just like Relikt and Duplet (however it is stated by the chinese to be a little less effective than these). Being a 3rd gen ERA (having a "double acting mechanism") it may be able to overcome all the APFSDS mentioned until now, which have capabilities to defeat the previous generation of ERA. This should answer the question as to which tank may have frontal overmatch: basically, no one as none of them are sold with projectiles capable of defeating the other.
Now about the stuff that makes also a difference in combat, who sees and shoots first. Both tanks have thermal sights and CITV, which makes them pretty comparable. T-90MS has 3rd gen thermal sight for the commander and 2nd gen for the gunner (with digital enhancer). I don't know about the specific capabilities of the sights of VT-4 but i would expect 2nd gen for commander and gunner at the very minimum and perhaps even 3rd gen for both. So, again very comparable.

Now, comparing other attributes of the tanks: VT-4 has much better mobility characteristics. Much more modern and powerful engine/transmission on par with the latest in western service. T-90MS still uses a modernized version of the T-34 engine and its transmission, while reliable and proven, doesn't provide mobility parameters on par with the world standard. On the other hand, T-90MS has much better side protection, as the russians offer a lot of ERA alternatives to be mounted on the sides (the Relikt+2S24 light ERA combo is excellent by nowadays standards) while the chinese don't even mount armor on the hull sides of their tanks. Likewise, the turret armor on VT-4 (again, comparable to T-90MS in effectiveness) covers a narrower frontal arc than the russian competitor. So, in my view overall both tanks are equal in firepower, VT-4 wins mobility and T-90MS wins in protection. The really classified aspects of C4I, networking, communications cannot be compared really but what is most certain is that in these areas T-90MS definitely differs from russian service T-90M.

As side notes, T-90MS has some ergonomic advantages over VT-4. For example, the placement of CITV is optimal as to not interfere with the visibility of the commander´s periscopes, unlike what we´ve seen in chinese tanks (and most western tanks as well). Likewise, the integration of the RCWS in T-90M/MS into the CITV is the best solution as to keep good visibility both from the periscopes and the CITV itself, any other tank in the world which has RCWS it ends up obstructing the field of vision one way or the other. Also, the internal arrangement of the commander´s station is excellent, very spacious, ergonomic and well laid out. So, a lot of kudos to the russians in that respect. Oh and T-90MS has air conditioner for the crew, so that's a definite advantage over other tanks. If only the russians had developed a modern engine/transmission for the tank...
As one of its designers once mentioned in an interview(in Chinese), the VT4 has 5xx mm RHA against APFSDS with base armor and 7xx when installed with FY2.
Since FY2 provides 120~150± KE (Accordingly it should be able to reduce no less than 30% KE of Chinese 105mm APFSDS) we can expect 550~600 frontal RHA on VT4’s base armor.
Also note that Pakistan's VT4s have FY4 instead of FY2...
 
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Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
As one of its designers once mentioned in an interview(in Chinese), the VT4 has 5xxmm against APFSDS with base armor and 7xx when installed with FY2.
Since FY2 provides 120~140± KE (Accordingly it should be able to reduce 30% KE of Chinese 105mm APFSDS) we can expect 550~600 frontal RHA on VT4’s base armor.
Also note that Pakistan's VT4s have FY4 instead of FY2...

It's reasonable then to assume FY4 provides at least an additional ~150-200mm over FY2, since it's a couple of generations ahead. That should take the VT-4 with FY4 well over 800mm total.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
So essentially the very best Russian tank in production now - T90MS is at best equal to VT-4 which is not the best Chinese MBT in production. Even in this comparison, the VT-4 has better networking capabilities according to Pakistan Army which trialed the T90MS, VT-4, and Oplot-M.

The Indian T-90S has far inferior optics, sensors, communication, networking, and fire control compared to the T90MS. So what is the big fuss Berserk? IA doesn't have T90MS in any significant numbers yet but okay the PA doesn't have VT-4 in numbers either. Why talk about svinets when the IA T90S doesn't even use it? It uses mango and still buys mango. Again the PA VT-4 thoroughly mutilates the Indian T90S in firepower due to far superior optics and FCS. Also far superior ammo. This is until IA receive T90MS with new ammunition.

VT-4 and T90MS are fairly close overall but how many T90MS has India received and how many VT-4 has Pakistan received? We're also ignoring APS available to both tanks since anti-tank missiles will definitely be thrown around at MBTs more than APFSDS. Both Pakistan and India have a lack of capable drones and gunships. These things make MBTs sitting ducks. India has pretty convincing advantages in the air so Pakistan should really consider that rather than believing VT-4s will be going up against Russian tanks. Luckily India just doesn't have many/any anti-tank gunships and drones yet.
 

dawn_strike

New Member
Registered Member
Svinets 2 is up for export. indian T 90 will probably have them. Indian army RFI require a new APFSDS.
Credit DFI.
View attachment 64696

FY 2 ERA is not kontakt 5 ha ha!.
Mango M actual penetration is 560mm certified.

Credit: DFI
View attachment 64697

It's base armour is same as older Type 96A.
and even with FY 4 ERA it's protection level is same as T 72 being upgraded in indian arsenal. :)

Well that's right even I don't think mango APFSDS penetrating VT 4 turret from 2 km.

Odd are hardly in it's favour and FY-4 ERA is not in a league of Relikt or duplet, it has comparable performance to kontakt 5 at best.

You wrote a lot of gibberish nothing more. Typical Chinese fanboy. VT 4 protection level is pathetic and is comparable to upgrade T 72( and i being generous here once more ). ammo is pathetic with 600mm DOP. FCS is also pathetic. china stonk is good for this forum and it's fanboys only lol.

Svinets 1 & 2 require bigger autoloader but can use same gun which will give less DOP though. For e.g svinets 2 with current T 90S gun has 600mm DOP but 660mm with upgraded gun due to higher muzzle velocity.
FY4 is able to reduce 30% KE of a 125mm APFSDS according to its official manual, which is way better than K5.
General consensus is not that they are comparable MBT. It's only in Chinese fanboys head and latest being Pakistani that's it's a new wonder weapon. I just gave you best case scenario when i said it may matches T 90S protection level to keep you lot happy lol , while It's protection level is poor and is comparable to now upgraded T 72 in Russian and in indian service. nothing special about it.
what claim , without evidence ? . It's a fact that it's base armour is same as older Type 96A it's not going to increase magically now would it. BTA 4 APFSDS penetration is well known... 220mm at 68°5. That's slightly better than upgraded mango fired from T 72, T 90 lol, again nothing special.

Yes FY-4 at best case scenario is kontakt 5 copy nothing more and even if take your 180mm RHA vs APFSDS , along with 600mm base armour that's total of 780mm protection. around same as upgraded T 72 in Russian and in indian service lmao! an no kontakt 5 does not provide 120mm protection must be old one from 80s. It's like saying mango APFSDS from 80s has same DOP of 460mm when all its clone and improved version are touching almost 600mm.
this is indian upgraded T 72 with ERA MK2 ( improved kontakt 5 copy).

View attachment 64707
View attachment 64709

Protection level is same as VT 4 , probably better lmao!.
I don't get it when some people insist on finding connections between VT4 and ZTZ96A. Not a single clue supports that they have the same base armor.
 
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