New Type98/99 MBT thread


luhai

Banned Idiot
During the race the very front right side plate, protecting the right side wheels, clenched inward and got caught by the tank's track while it covered through a rough section of the terrain. The second tank crew drove there to help inspect the damage. No details or what happened to the tank later but it would've been sent for repairs.

Sounds like design flaw that needs to be fixed. It's unlikely this is the first time this have happened, hope this embarrassment will prompt corrective action in the armament department, and some head will roll.

Also, I just noticed there is no ZTZ-96 tread. We need to create one, and move all discussions there. After all, there way more Type 96s in the PLA than Type 99.
 
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no_name

Major
I read from the news though that it is caused by a collision with the Russian T-72 (their ones clenched outward and upwards so were not affected and continued the race). There is a pic of the damaged T-72 somewhere online. From what I've heard it was the Russian tank that made the collision but they were not penalized nor were the Chinese type 96 given extra time.

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GreatWall

New Member
Registered Member
I read from the news though that it is caused by a collision with the Russian T-72 (their ones clenched outward and upwards so were not affected and continued the race). There is a pic of the damaged T-72 somewhere online. From what I've heard it was the Russian tank that made the collision but they were not penalized nor were the Chinese type 96 given extra time.

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If that's true then of course not, it's always those Russian judges! :p
 

siegecrossbow

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
I don't think that the Russian tank should be given the full blame here. China only placed seventh at the second phase of the contest despite not colliding with other tanks. Seems like Type-96 is woefully underpowered for its class.
 

GreatWall

New Member
Registered Member
I don't think that the Russian tank should be given the full blame here. China only placed seventh at the second phase of the contest despite not colliding with other tanks. Seems like Type-96 is woefully underpowered for its class.

I don't think anyone's surprised by that. The PLA in the 90's(I believe the Type 96 was officially implemented in '95 or '96?) was years and years behind the Soviet's in the 60's and 70's when the T-72 was first developed.
 
I don't think anyone's surprised by that. The PLA in the 90's(I believe the Type 96 was officially implemented in '95 or '96?) was years and years behind the Soviet's in the 60's and 70's when the T-72 was first developed.

Which is why at least the initial version of the ZTZ-99 uses the chassis straight from the T-72, that is a pretty sad state of affairs. China has quite some catching up to do in the propulsion department across the board for things that move on land, sea, and air. It is the single most important component which sets the limits for every other aspect of the piece of equipment.
 

Tyloe

Junior Member
I read from the news though that it is caused by a collision with the Russian T-72 (their ones clenched outward and upwards so were not affected and continued the race). There is a pic of the damaged T-72 somewhere online. From what I've heard it was the Russian tank that made the collision but they were not penalized nor were the Chinese type 96 given extra time.


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That would make a lot more sense. I didn't think the Type 96's plate would have belted in that easily.

According to
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China brought 4 Type 96A tanks to the biathlon. Which would mean there's three undamaged Type 96s and are still in the race. I'm not sure how long it takes for the repairs of the damaged Type 96, but If the race at some point the team needs 4 tank crews Russia might lent a T-72.
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Review of Day 1 and1
Arms race: Tank biathlon world championship begins near Moscow
Source: Russia Beyond the Headlines -
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At a military training facility 30 miles outside Moscow, an unusual new international biathlon is taking place for the first time. Like an ordinary biathlon, the event features racing and shooting, but here the competitors are not athletes, but tank crews from around the world.

The world’s first official tank biathlon championship, which began on Monday, August 4, at the Alabino Firing Range, is being attended by crews from 12 different countries: Angola, Armenia, Belarus, Venezuela, India, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, China, Kuwait, Mongolia, Russia and Serbia.

Speaking at the opening ceremony of the championship, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu described the event as of great importance for the military-industrial complex.

“The constructed course will not only determine the level of crew training, but also test the strength of the armored vehicles,” said Shoigu. Military partners: actual and potential Shoigu also made it clear that the event could be seen in terms of developing stronger political and military ties with the participating nation.

Military partners: actual and potential

Shoigu also made it clear that the event could be seen in terms of developing stronger political and military ties with the participating nations. In Russia, even tanks practice biathlon

“Faced with the complicated international situation, the upcoming competitions are designed to promote trust and understanding between the armed forces of different countries,” said the defense minister.

“This championship is a testament to the desire and willingness of Russia to work on the development of inter-state partnerships in the military sphere,” said Shoigu, making it clear that the countries currently participating can be seen as Russia’s current and potential partners in military-technical cooperation.

Race for survival
The current Tank Biathlon competition is being held in four phases: individual races, 3-kilometer (1.86 miles) sprints, pursuit and relay races. Each member state is represented by four tank crews – three primary ones and a backup team.
The 4.5-mile-long track includes a high-speed section, firing ranges, and a variety of obstacles, such as passage through minefields, two uphill slopes, an anti-tank ditch, an obstacle and maneuvering course, mounds, two escarpments, fords, and a model of a track bridge.

Struggle for leadership

Despite upbeat statements by the crews of the various countries about their readiness to win the prizes, the first day of the competition showed that the Russian tank crews were still a cut above their rivals. From the stands, it was clear that the Russian crews were performing the exercises more precisely, quickly and confidently compared with the visiting teams.

Perhaps in the course of the championship, this situation will change somewhat, although breaking the trend set on the first day is quite unlikely. After the first day of the competition, the results of the individual racing determined four leaders: Russia, Armenia, China, and Kuwait.

The first international tank biathlon, with the active support of the Russian Ministry of Defense, was held one year ago. The resounding success of the event gave birth to the idea to create a full-fledged international tank biathlon as a form of bona fide military sports competition.

A large number of countries expressed a desire to participate in the international championship, including a number of NATO states. It was assumed that the teams would be able to compete using their own combat vehicles, which would further increase interest in the discipline.

However, as a result of the aggravated situation in the foreign policy sphere and the refusal of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization to participate, the championship participants are competing in Russian T-72 tanks.


T72 versus the Chinese Type 96A

However, the rules of the tank biathlon do not prohibit tank crews from using machines of other brands – and it is this that has provided one of the main intrigues of the 2014 championship – the Chinese team arrived in Alabino in their own Type 96A tanks. Put into service in 1997, the Type 96A forms the foundation of the Chinese army’s armored units. Markedly different from the T-72, the machine is 5.5 tons heavier than the Russian tank. However, its maximum speed (40 mph) exceeds that of the Russian machine by 3 mph. The Chinese high-speed tank sports a boosted 1,000-hp diesel engine. This engine is a further improvement of China’s diesel tank 12150L7-BW, and thus continues the line of the Soviet V-54 engine.

The Type 96A gun is an exact replica of the Russian 2A46M gun. Ammunition – 42 shells, 22 of which are located in the autoloader. Like in the Russian tank, the Chinese firing rate of the gun is eight rounds per minute. The main differences between the Type 96A and Russian machines lie in their appearances. The Type 96A has a characteristic angular shape, thus slightly reminiscent of the German Leopard 1.

During the competition, the Type 96A has so far showed good fighting and technical capacity and demonstrated itself the equal to most of the other machines involved in the championship. The unfortunate loss of a caterpillar track kept the Chinese from overtaking the Russians in the early phase of competition.

Like last year, each member of the winning crew in the finals will receive a new car from the Uralvagonzavod (UVZ) Corporation as a prize. This time the prize vehicle will be a fully-equipped Russian SUV – UAZ Patriot.

The keys will be handed out to the winners on the last day of the competition, August 16, after the results of the championship are tallied.



Latest development from Wednesday:
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Russia claimed victory at the second heat of the 2014 Tank Biathlon world championship, the Russian Defense Ministry’s press service said Wednesday.

“On the current stage [of the competition] Russian Federation came first [with the result of] 26 minutes 27 seconds, the Republic of Kazakhstan came second [with the result of] 30 minutes 14 seconds and the Republic of India was the third [with the result of] 31 minutes 26 seconds,“ said the chief judge of the competition, Lt. Gen. Yury Petrov was quoted by the press service as saying.

Petrov added that the final results of the individual race would be announced after the third heat on Wednesday.
According to Petrov, the main draw of Wednesday’s race is the competition between the Russian crew led by Sgt. Bulat Tsyrenov competing with the T-72 tank and the Chinese crew with their Type 96A tank.

Tank biathlon is a mechanized military sport invented in Russia. It is designed to be very similar to the regular biathlon. Competing teams need to overcome several obstacles like a slalom section, a ford, a steep hill, a panel bridge and an escarpment and hit targets simulating tanks and low-flying helicopters.

The current competition, which began on August 4, takes place in Alabino just outside Moscow.
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luhai

Banned Idiot
I don't think anyone's surprised by that. The PLA in the 90's(I believe the Type 96 was officially implemented in '95 or '96?) was years and years behind the Soviet's in the 60's and 70's when the T-72 was first developed.

I don't think that the Russian tank should be given the full blame here. China only placed seventh at the second phase of the contest despite not colliding with other tanks. Seems like Type-96 is woefully underpowered for its class.

The specs seems to differ

We really need a ZTZ-96 thread and move all conversation to here.

T-72A
Weight 41.5 ton
horse power 780 hp
power to weight ratio 18.8

T-72B (1985)
Weight 41.5 ton
horse power 840 hp
power to weight ratio 20.2

T-72B3 (2013 new variant) used in competition.
Weight 44.5 ton*
horse power 1000 hp
power to weight ratio 22.47

ZTZ-96
Weight 42.8 ton
horse power 1000 hp
power to weight ratio 23.36

ZTZ-96A
Weight 48 ton ? (online speculation)
horse power 1200 hp ? (online spec, used engine from Type 90II)
power to weight ratio 25

ZTZ-96A As reported by the media from competition
Weight 50 ton*
horse power 1200 hp or 1000 hp
power to weight ratio 24 or 20

* they might use short tons, in that case it's lighter than normal load which would make more sense. Also for horsepower, the stat might be in bhp rather than hp, which could be confusion. In any case, I can't read Russian.

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for comparison

ZTZ-99
Weight 54 ton
horse power 1500
power to weight ratio 27.8


T-80U
Weight 46 ton
horse power 1250 hp
power to weight ratio 27.2

T-90
Weight 47.5 ton
horse power 1250 hp
power to weight ratio 26.3

M1A1
Weight 63 ton
horse power 1500 hp
power to weight ratio 23.80

M1A3
Weight 68 ton
horse power 1500 hp
power to weight ratio 22

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Bltizo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I don't think that the Russian tank should be given the full blame here. China only placed seventh at the second phase of the contest despite not colliding with other tanks. Seems like Type-96 is woefully underpowered for its class.

The chart which the Russians posted showing the weight and top speeds of all the various tanks participating seems to show otherwise (which luhai included in #1918). If that chart is accurate, Type 96A is not only heavier than the other T-72s but also has a higher top speed, which says something about its power to weight ratio.


Where did you see that China placed seventh?


I also read that the Type 96A was the only tank able to hit all 12 targets in one of the rounds... but I'm not really sure how this biathlon is being judged so I can't say anything about the importance of that result.


And @greatwall -- the Type 96A which is participating in the exercise isn't quite the original Type 96 developed two decades ago.
 

luhai

Banned Idiot
Here is the news with China placed 7th. In there Russia placed 1st with 26 min 27 sec, Kazakhstan second at 30 min 14 sec, India third at 31 min 26 sec. China finished 7th at 32 min 15 sec.

If this is score like a regular bianthon, then score is based on least time, and miss targets are counted penalty time added to actual finish time.

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Additionally, does anyone know if ZTZ-96A uses 12150L7-BW as the original ZTZ-96 as stated in the Russian article or did it upgrade to 6td-2 derivative as stated on wiki. The old sinodefence site also used the 1200 hp number.

I also read that the Type 96A was the only tank able to hit all 12 targets in one of the rounds... but I'm not really sure how this biathlon is being judged so I can't say anything about the importance of that result.

And @greatwall -- the Type 96A which is participating in the exercise isn't quite the original Type 96 developed two decades ago.

Also keep mind the T-72B3 used in the competition isn't exactly the original one either, in fact it's just placed into service late last year. So what we really have is the latest budget tanks square off against each other. Rather than a new tank vs an old tank.

From Global Time, China isn't the only one that didn't miss. Russia, Armenia also didn't miss their targets in the 1st day.
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Score the second day, it appears China did miss some targets this time and got 2 minute worth of penalties.
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