Modern Main Battle Tanks ( MBT )

kwaigonegin said:

Man! I really like this tank. Granted I'm no guru on armored vehicles but that is one cool looking tank. They can certainly uparmored it to like 45-50 tons, add current generation electronics then it can certainly rivaled or even outmatched the likes of Abrams, Leo 2s etc.

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The Turret is fine and the Gun is good for such but the hull is not up for it. and the Autoloader is small it would need a new hull and upgraded armor as well as a larger turret bustle. since the turret is unmanned lighter armor on the turret is not a major issue.

because we have all the activity this week though I would throw in some posts for the North Koreans.

This is the Chonma-Ho Tank. It's roughly a second generation MBT based on the T62, note the 5 road wheels and round turret. This tank is the basis for the main line of Indigenous North Korean Tanks
The Main gun is a 115mm smoothbore, The Russians designed this gun by taking the 100mm used in the T55 and removing the rifling. a crew of 4 as it lacks an autoloader. commander has a 14.5mm MG and a 7.62x54mm coax note the IR projector and early night vision system. the turret has been fitted with additional armor appliques around the gun mantlet.
estimates are that the KPA have a over a thousand units. The North Koreans are believed to have another 800 T62M MBT that are compatible for upgrades off this tank.
They seem to have even exported a number to Iran and Ethiopia. power plant is a 750 hp Diesel with a presumed top speed of 50KPH.
The Tanks they face to the south are the K1A1 and K1A2 series MBT sometimes called the "Baby Abrams" as it is in many ways a smaller version of the US Abrams tank 1511 built.


The Pokpung Ho MBT At first glance you might confuse it for one of the later soviet tanks like T64 or T72 or even T80 at a stretch ( the South Koreans by the way have a number of T80U's that they could easily use to Opfor for training) but it's not. This is an indigenous North Korean design based on a lengthened T62 hull. The North Koreans never managed to get large numbers of T72's imported to them, after the Fall of the Soviet state it's believed the North Koreans managed to snag a few retired T72's It may also have some influence from the PRC Type 80. Whatever the Case these tanks emerged in 2002 which is why they are sometimes referred to as M2002 they are classified as second generation due to their IR systems. ( first generation MBT were medium tanks post WW2, Second generation add night vision systems, Third Generation have composite armor, computerized fire control systems allowing firing on the movie)
These Tanks early version came with the 115mm smooth bore ( see unit above) this was replaced in later versions ( like the one below) with a 125mm smooth bore like that on most Warsaw pact tanks post T64. unlike those tanks though it is believed to lack a Autoloader. Also note changes in the Turret profile possibly a composite armor. Commander normally has a 14.5mm MG and a Coaxial 7.62x45mm
The North Koreans are believed to lack the ability to use Guided Antitank missile from their main guns and with limited Air support and no true IFV's.so they compensate

by mounting additional weapons to their MBT. this one has dual MANPAD's, Dual ATGM's, and Some form of automatic weapons possibly AGS 17s. Because Dakka Dakka!
It's believed that the Iranians are engaged in a technology share with the North Koreans and that newer versions of the Pokpung Ho may now feature and Iranian Fire control system. Power is a V12 Diesel with 1000 hp top speed of 60 KPH,
The Tank these would be facing from the south are the K2 240+ built.
250-500 Pokpung ho are believed to exist

TerraN_EmpirE said:

It's believed that the Iranians are engaged in a technology share with the North Koreans and that newer versions of the Pokpung Ho may now feature and Iranian Fire control system.

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The order is mistaken. Tank on second photo(Songun-915) is the newest one, and one with 125mm smoothbore.
Readily identifilable by very large hemisperical turret, as well as driver in a central position.


Tank on lower photos is chon'ma-216. Driver on the left, somewhat "squared" turret form, add-on armor on turret and hull, remeniscent of "Brezhnev' eyebrows" from T-55M and T-62M; 115mm gun.
ATGM installation(Bulsae-3) thus can be considered as a way to keep 115mm gunned tanks relevant, and whole upgrade probably is something very rescent.

Also, by the way, order of things is somewhat messed up.
While North Korea is considered to be some kind of black hole - even if very poor, it's still an industrialised state with well established defense sector in particular.
Basically, most of known tech transfer between two states was performed from North Korea to Iran, and not the other way around.

You could be right about which versions I hve a hard time keeping up with them due to the fact that the North Koreans don't go on a media blitz for there new toys

Gloire_bb said:

Also, by the way, order of things is somewhat messed up.
While North Korea is considered to be some kind of black hole - even if very poor, it's still an industrialised state with well established defense sector in particular.
Basically, most of known tech transfer between two states was performed from North Korea to Iran, and not the other way around.

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Normally a tech exchange means some reciprocal exchange.
it's claimed that the North Koreans are ahead in missiles and Warheads.
The Iranians are claimed to be ahead in more conventional weapons, like Helicopters, Tanks, and general aviation.
The Iranian Karrar MBT has more advanced tech including a Carousel autoloader remote weapons extensive ERA and Slat armor, T90 optics, a welded turret and a Bustle storage module with blowout panels for reserve ammo.
Now some of this is likely licenced from Russia but that gives it a technology leap beyond the cast Turret. They have a IFV in the form of Indigenous clones of the BMP 2 the Boragh.

They also have albeit limited, Indigenous Aircraft production of Cloned AH1,UH1, Jet Ranger Choppers and F5 fighters.
So A one sided Tech exchange seems unlikely.

Tank on photo is t-72 upgrade, even if deep one(new cast turret).
Btw, main sight has little to do with t-90, iirc it's local development of Slovenian FCS.
Also, let me be frank: Iranians tried so many times to fool everyone with their wooden(plastic, paper, sheet metal) "models", built around something old and working, what i believe in their new stuff only when it's known to be in service. Their recent example of "stealth fighter" is a good example, why.

Also, sometimes Iranians show such new developments, what...well

Cuban level from 30 years ago reached. Nothing to be proud of, though.


Btw, there is one good indication: except for allies with little choice(Houthi, for example) few Iranian weapons beyond small arms make it anywhere.

NK weapon export is a well known fact, and it includes things like independently developed manpads, ATGMs, tank FCS, ASCMs and more.

Gloire_bb said:

Tank on photo is t-72 upgrade, even if deep one(new cast turret).
Btw, main sight has little to do with t-90, iirc it's local development of Slovenian FCS.
Also, let me be frank: Iranians tried so many times to fool everyone with their wooden(plastic, paper, sheet metal) "models", built around something old and working, what i believe in their new stuff only when it's known to be in service. Their recent example of "stealth fighter" is a good example, why.

Also, sometimes Iranians show such new developments, what...well

Cuban level from 30 years ago reached. Nothing to be proud of, though.


Btw, there is one good indication: except for allies with little choice(Houthi, for example) few Iranian weapons beyond small arms make it anywhere.

NK weapon export is a well known fact, and it includes things like independently developed manpads, ATGMs, tank FCS, ASCMs and more.

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This is DIY

Gloire_bb said:

Tank on photo is t-72 upgrade, even if deep one(new cast turret).
Btw, main sight has little to do with t-90, iirc it's local development of Slovenian FCS.
Also, let me be frank: Iranians tried so many times to fool everyone with their wooden(plastic, paper, sheet metal) "models", built around something old and working, what i believe in their new stuff only when it's known to be in service. Their recent example of "stealth fighter" is a good example, why.

Also, sometimes Iranians show such new developments, what...well

Cuban level from 30 years ago reached. Nothing to be proud of, though.


Btw, there is one good indication: except for allies with little choice(Houthi, for example) few Iranian weapons beyond small arms make it anywhere.

NK weapon export is a well known fact, and it includes things like independently developed manpads, ATGMs, tank FCS, ASCMs and more.

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The Bulsae-2 is a 9K111 clone, there MANPADs are SA-18, There fire control systems are products of the Early 80's. Large missiles are where the DPRK shines.

It's a T72, That's fine. The T90 started as a T72 upgrade.
The Turret is welded on the new one. but in the end the critical parts of a modern Tank Fire control system are there. And originally the T90 upgrade was based on a French MBT fire control system


If it lacks a Commander's independent sight and a gunner's sight It's not a modern FCS. And the Tanks of the North Koreans lack both.
The Iranians have pulled fakes but then so have the North Koreans, part of this years day of the sun they had troops marching with AK74's mocked up like OICWs

The fact is The Iranians have had more access to Aviation and MBT systems from abroad in the last decades. From IRGC backed groups operating Export Abrams for the Iraqis and Dealings with the Russians.
Access to and development of Aviation from reverse engineered Drones,
They have exported Radars
Copied the same ATGM's as the DPRK
And even been building Naval assets.
In the end The Iranians have the money The North Koreans have the Rockets and both are willing to trade between each other.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

The Bulsae-2 is a 9K111 clone, there MANPADs are SA-18

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Current are developments, since both aiming block, optics among other things are different.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

There fire control systems are products of the Early 80's.

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North Koreans did produce independent FC systems back in 1980s, and they're "combat proven" by now. Somewhere met reports of them being remarkably capable.
Check syrian T-55 upgrades. While progress since then is hard to verify - it's possible to assume, what (1)they didn't sit iddle. (2)newest developments show interesting devices. For example, everyone discusses external stations on updated chon'ma, but few do so about optical sensors on turret sides. Laser warning?

Stop, there is one big difference. T-90MS(on photo) - is newly produced tank, with highly visible developments(and ones, known to work). Well, it's one of the most capable tank producers, after all.
T-90 never had french FCS. T-90 had(and still has) french matrix for IR nightvision, beginning with T-90A, earlier examples had soviet one.
Iranian hull is good old actual t-72s one(Iran bought production line from Russia in 1990s):

i believe, all necessary external features are visible here. It actually tells it's local development, not license built t-90ms knock-off, and at the same time it makes wonder about its actual capabilities. After all, it struggles to look as t-90ms so much.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

If it lacks a Commander's independent sight and a gunner's sight It's not a modern FCS.

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Erm, how do you imagine tank w/o independent gunners' sight? Aiming through barrel?
There are visible sights, as well as FC sensors(LRF, wind, humidity. etc) on turret.

And independent commanders' panoramic sight is lacking on either.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

The Iranians have pulled fakes but then so have the North Koreans

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You can reliably tell it as a fake, or it's your own assumption?

They use Periscopes. Older generations of FCS.
And has to the fake, Do you know how much time money and technology has been invested by the US/Germany, the PRC and South Korea for Air burst individual weapons?

TerraN_EmpirE said:

They use Periscopes. Older generations of FCS.

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erm. There are no modern MBTs w/o gunners' periscopic and/or telescopic sight in service.
Only exception is T-14 Armata, for obvious reason(it's impossible), and it's still being trialed.

If you'll look at all these - their periscopic sight(over left part of turret) is very reminiscent of t-72 1K13 sight - the very same device, Karrar carries at the same spot.

In korean case, it can be something local, but it's very unlikely.

Karrar also has additional large twin-windowed box(Fotona-derived), but so do Koreans(box over gun barrel).

Overall, to put it bluntly - i find possibility of NK being able to produce&field tank, comparable to chinese type 96A to be very real.
On the other hand, ability of Iran to go over this level is something questionable, even with significant foreign input. There are just some advantages of achieving something by yourself.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Do you know how much time money and technology

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Not that much, actually. At least, not to a point, where i feel it to be impossible for them to produce actual parade batch.
Problem isn't making it work per se, problem is making it small enough, light enough, yet still able to work as intended.
There are just much more useful ways to make your personal weapon heavier.