Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Asymptote

Banned Idiot
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

You don't need any defense on the missile itself. First, the ABL is never going to get in range at all before it is shot down. You have to remember that China's ICBMs are deployed inland while air defense extends outward few hundred kilometers from the coastline. Second, you can always launch a tactical nuke at where the ABL is at, and it's bye-bye 747.


Ta-ta-ta-tactical nuke ?!!

Erm, first, if you use nuclear weapon, its beyond the scope of just ABL. Its defcon 1 stuff, prepare for all nuclear options....

Second, using a tactical nuke to shoot down ABL 747 is a bit extreme isn't it? Its like swatting a fly with canon. China doesn't possess that many nukes in the first place, so it would be wasteful to use it on ABL.

Lastly, what happen when ABL 747 use that laser to shoot down the tactical nuke ?!?

So no, I don't think tactical nuke is a valid solution.
 
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IronsightSniper

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

You don't need any defense on the missile itself. First, the ABL is never going to get in range at all before it is shot down. You have to remember that China's ICBMs are deployed inland while air defense extends outward few hundred kilometers from the coastline. Second, you can always launch a tactical nuke at where the ABL is at, and it's bye-bye 747.

Oh and would there be any Chinese internet sites that would lead me to believe that China has some sort of Close-range interceptor with Laser-pointer technology? Blinding the pilots only works as long as there's no one in the cabin behind the cock-pit left to fly the plain.

You should understand the context of the discussion first before you assume the ABL is going to get shot down.

We're talking about a Carrier-killing AShBM, the DF-21D, being fired on a U.S.N. CBG.

We're talking about the ABL destroying that DF-21D.

For referencing, the DF-21D has a range of 3,000 km, and the ABL has at worst, a 5 second kill time for a Solid-fueled Ballistic missile at a range of 400 km.

As you know, the DF-21D launchers are mobile.

So, if those said DF-21D TELs are located say, 2,600 km inland and are targeting a BG that's 400 km off the shore of Shanghai, than by the graciousness of the Raptors, the ABL has a small probability of destroying the DF-21D.

However, if those DF-21Ds are targeting a BG that's farther off, and would require to be restationed closer, i.e. moved to the shores, than the 200 km max stand-off range of Chinese SAMs would not be enough to intercept the ABL before it destroys that DF-21D, assuming that the PLAN Air-defense Destroyers are dealt with properly.

Finally, a tactical nuke can be easily intercepted by the ABL.
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

A tactical nuke has upsides and downsides like any other weapon. It has costs like Asymptote outlined, and it has benefits (mainly a vastly increased chance of interception). So it comes down to the actual situation and decisions of the leaders in charge. I personally can't see nukes being deployed in any capacity by any nation unless things were very, very serious. And in that case, total nuclear war might be unavoidable. So when discussing conventional weapons systems, it's best to avoid bringing in nuclear weapons to the discussion, because you quickly arrive at this discussion ending bunch of mushroom clouds.
 

Engineer

Major
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Oh and would there be any Chinese internet sites that would lead me to believe that China has some sort of Close-range interceptor with Laser-pointer technology?
Nice strawman there. I have a feeling that you are imaginging some kind of fighter aircraft getting close-range, then use camera to identify the face of the pilots, before firing laser from some pod...

No, all it takes is a ground-base platform to point its laser in the general direction of the ABL. It will still have to be powerful, but it doesn't need to be as powerful nor as accurate as the ABL. All that needs to be ensured is enough power-per-area falls on the rectina.

China's interests in using laser in military is an open secret. There are also accusations on China of using its ground base laser to temporarily blind sensors on other nations' spy satellites. We happen to have a thread in the Army section about Chinese military lasers and you may want to ask about open literatures there.

Blinding the pilots only works as long as there's no one in the cabin behind the cock-pit left to fly the plain.
Blinding occurs as long as enough power-per-area falls on the rectina.

You should understand the context of the discussion first before you assume the ABL is going to get shot down.
You should stop treating China as Iraq before you assume ABL is not going to get shot down.

We're talking about a Carrier-killing AShBM, the DF-21D, being fired on a U.S.N. CBG.... than the 200 km max stand-off range of Chinese SAMs would not be enough to intercept the ABL before it destroys that DF-21D, assuming that the PLAN Air-defense Destroyers are dealt with properly.
I'm sure that ABL will have no technical problem shooting down a DF-21 when close enough. I don't think anyone is debating against that either. But the technicality is entirely different from being able to do so in total-war with another major power, on that power's home-turf.

There is a tendency among those who are in the religion of CVBG being invincible to portrait the opponent having zero capability, and to convert others into this religion. And some assumptions that have been thrown around as a result is quite frankly stupid. Your notion that air defense only consists soley of SAMs; that a strategic asset such as an ABL being placed on the very frontline; that PLAN air-defense is conviently non-existance, all fall into this category.

Then we have the usual retort "but how will China find the carrier" yadda yadda yadda, which has nothing to do with the Anti Ship Ballistic Missile itself, but nevertheless being used with flaw logic to conclude that ASBM doesn't work. Then, observations (or lack there of) are skewed to support that conclusion. If there is a 100% effective weapon, but it can't be used because there's no sensor, that doesn't imply said weapon is technically flawed.

Finally, a tactical nuke can be easily intercepted by the ABL.
That's the point, by forcing the ABL to choose between that or ASBMs. But I will drop this discussion on nukes because I thought ABL is being discussed in the context of nuclear armageddon.
 
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IronsightSniper

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Nice strawman there. I have a feeling that you are imaginging some kind of fighter aircraft getting close-range, then use camera to identify the face of the pilots, before firing laser from some pod...

No, all it takes is a ground-base platform to point its laser in the general direction of the ABL. It will still have to be powerful, but it doesn't need to be as powerful nor as accurate as the ABL. All that needs to be ensured is enough power-per-area falls on the rectina.

China's interests in using laser in military is an open secret. There are also accusations on China of using its ground base laser to temporarily blind sensors on other nations' spy satellites. We happen to have a thread in the Army section about Chinese military lasers and you may want to ask about open literatures there.

Oh, so you're taking a page from the Soviets, with their Terra-3 and it's FUBAR'ing of Space shuttles?

Hey look, I got new sun glasses, they reflect the laser!


Blinding occurs as long as enough power-per-area falls on the rectina.

Refer to: "Hey look, I got new sun glasses, they reflect the laser!"


You should stop treating China as Iraq before you assume ABL is not going to get shot down.

Not a lot to prove that it will be.


I'm sure that ABL will have no technical problem shooting down a DF-21 when close enough. I don't think anyone is debating against that either. But the technicality is entirely different from being able to do so in total-war with another major power, on that power's home-turf.

There is a tendency among those who are in the religion of CVBG being invincible to portrait the opponent having zero capability, and to convert others into this religion. And some assumptions that have been thrown around as a result is quite frankly stupid. Your notion that air defense only consists soley of SAMs; that a strategic asset such as an ABL being placed on the very frontline; that PLAN air-defense is conviently non-existance, all fall into this category.

Then we have the usual retort "but how will China find the carrier" yadda yadda yadda, which has nothing to do with the Anti Ship Ballistic Missile itself, but nevertheless being used with flaw logic to conclude that ASBM doesn't work. Then, observations (or lack there of) are skewed to support that conclusion. If there is a 100% effective weapon, but it can't be used because there's no sensor, that doesn't imply said weapon is technically flawed.

There's also a Religion of those who throw red herrings and never answer the question... :|

Just so you know, it wasn't an assumption. F-22s v.s. J-20s, F-22s wins hands down. China has Space-based Air-defense? You got me there. Other than that, you'll have to rely on SAMs.


That's the point, by forcing the ABL to choose between that or ASBMs. But I will drop this discussion on nukes because I thought ABL was discuss in the context of nuclear armageddon.

Well, it's not like there's a long wait-time in between shots :p

Detect, Aim, Fire, then reengage the DF-21D. Only takes not even a minute.
 

Engineer

Major
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Oh, so you're taking a page from the Soviets, with their Terra-3 and it's FUBAR'ing of Space shuttles?
What? China can't have their own independent research on laser?

Refer to: "Hey look, I got new sun glasses, they reflect the laser!"
Anyone with decent science background can tell you that sun glasses can't reflect laser.

Not a lot to prove that it will be.
No proof to show it will not.

There's also a Religion of those who throw red herrings and never answer the question... :|
Yes, you demonstrated you are a loyal devotee to this religion perfectly.

Just so you know, it wasn't an assumption.
They are very much assumptions.

F-22s v.s. J-20s, F-22s wins hands down.
Another assumption. J-20's capability is still not known.

China has Space-based Air-defense? You got me there. Other than that, you'll have to rely on SAMs.
Nice try with that strawman. No where have I mentioned space-based air-defense. I also like how you still convinently dismiss the existance of the entire airforce.
 

tdultima

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

The YAL-1A is a laser mounted on a Boeing 747. What's stopping China from shooting the thing down with fighter aircraft?
 

IronsightSniper

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

What? China can't have their own independent research on laser?

What? We can't ignore references?


Anyone with decent science background can tell you that sun glasses can't reflect laser.

Not unless they're made in China.


No proof to show it will not.

Not even a shred of proof.


Yes, you demonstrated you are a loyal devotee to this religion perfectly.

Demonstration and Affiliation are different things, young grasshopper.


They are very much assumptions.

Well, what's to be the truth and what's to be assumed?


Another assumption. J-20's capability is still not known.

And as we know, 1 v.s. N/A, we can assume 1 wins.


Nice try with that strawman. No where have I mentioned space-based air-defense. I also like how you still convinently dismiss the existance of the entire airforce.

A couple of Flankers, a couple of J-17s, etc etc, are to out-perform a single F-22? Trust me, China will need Space-based Air-defense to counter Stealth. /end metaphor
 

delft

Brigadier
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Carlo Kopp covered those counter-measures in one of his articles regarding DEW development.

Those "Counter-measures" are only slowing the inevitable. Mirror paint is highly expensive and highly corrosive and stuff such as faster burn time only means more powerful or efficient engines, the latter of which isn't possible unless a new breakthrough is first underwent and the former is more probable but only adds on to the weight.

P.S. regardless of the counter-measures, I'm guessing the laser will only take less than a minute to do it's thing to the missile. And even the short-duration launch cycles of high-survivability missiles like the TOPOL-M will not be short enough for the laser to blow it up mid-air.
By the time your laser can be operational China might be far enough with the development of a high-acceleration missile, in several years time. Without going to the extreme of the Sprint missile of many years ago, a ballistic missile might have completed its burn before it can be acquired by the laser system. So what are you to do then? What are you to do, if six of them are launched at the same time?
 

delft

Brigadier
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Jeff Head wrote in #281:
"The issue regarding the US considering it as a WMD is that a US carrier, with 5000+ personnel on board is considered strategic and vital and anyone who was to successfully sink one of them would be considered conducting "Mass Destruction" against the US and should consider that the US will retaliate and conduct "mass destruction" back...not because of the "Area denial" portion of it."

If the US consider the destruction of a carrier with a crew of 5000+ unacceptable they should not build such vessels or at least not use them in war.

Let's take an absurd example: The USN attacks Pakistan and the Pakistani authorities consider this to be an existential thread to their country. As nuclear weapons are not outlawed they decide to throw a spread of bombs on the USN ships that attack them and sink a carrier. This is self defense and in international law allowed. If the US were to answer with a nuclear attack on Pakistan killing tens or hundreds of thousands of non-combatants this would clearly be a war crime. So what, in those circumstances, is the use of super-carriers?
 
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