Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

daviddwilson said:

The problem is a reliance on missile barrage means you're trading physical presence for offensive power. It's the same doctrinal mistake made about the superiority of air power. Once you've crushed enemy forces you need to occupy the territory to make any substantive gains. Asymmetry works for countries like China because they're playing defense. They already hold their own territories and need some offensive deterrence to prevent physical occupation, which is precisely what a carrier group is for. In that sense, the carrier group is not obsolete in any way.

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I would argue that the primary problem with ASBM's is the need for real time high accuracy targeting from a nearby platform for mid-course correction. Deny that ability, and one is firing essentially blind.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

try to attack moving even with sophisticate guidance is very diffucult.and with introduction of airborne laser,in future mean chances of being hit may be limited.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

challenge said:

try to attack moving even with sophisticate guidance is very diffucult.and with introduction of airborne laser,in future mean chances of being hit may be limited.

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Very true! And as I've stated many times >>> when did China test this missile on a moving target at sea and against ECM an missiles? Just askin..

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Well the curious part here is that the whole recent furore over the ASBM has come entirely from the US side. It started last February with an article from a (highly respected) Strategic/Defence Institute and really mushroomed from there.

In fact I am not aware of one single utterance on the subject from an official source from the PRC throughout this time.

During the summer there was much excitement when a new missile was publicly demonstrated and everybody shouted DF21D!! In reality it was the JL2 being shown off.

If people have been going around saying that the ASBM must be true, its only because official sources in the US have been going around saying how worried they are about it.

So what's the truth?

Is it just a US funding ploy?

Is it a piece of clever Chinese disinformation?

Does the US know its Chinese disinformation?

Do the Chinese know that the US knows its disinformation?

Is China secretly controlled by Lizards?

Where did I leave my tinfoil hat.....?

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

where did i leave my tinfoil hat.....?

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lol!..



This is what I think..

I think China has said missile. Probably tested on shore. BUT >> Not at sea.

The US Admrials/Generals have been for the last several years been building China as the next foe of the US. So in order to keep those defense dollars rolling in they say what they have to to keep those defense bucks rolling in. There's much truth in what they say.

And don't get me wrong China is a concern of the US DoD. A big concern.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

SampanViking said:

Well the curious part here is that the whole recent furore over the ASBM has come entirely from the US side. It started last February with an article from a (highly respected) Strategic/Defence Institute and really mushroomed from there.

In fact I am not aware of one single utterance on the subject from an official source from the PRC throughout this time.

During the summer there was much excitement when a new missile was publicly demonstrated and everybody shouted DF21D!! In reality it was the JL2 being shown off.

If people have been going around saying that the ASBM must be true, its only because official sources in the US have been going around saying how worried they are about it.

So what's the truth?

Is it just a US funding ploy?

Is it a piece of clever Chinese disinformation?

Does the US know its Chinese disinformation?

Do the Chinese know that the US knows its disinformation?

Is China secretly controlled by Lizards?

Where did I leave my tinfoil hat.....?

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Well... one of the best defence is deception...

When everyone said that Israel had nuclear weapons, but did the Israelis actually and openly deny or agreed to this?

Same thing here. When the US said that China had this new 'carrier killer', China didn't acknowledge or deny (it doesn't mean China didn't have... it also didn't mean China had or this weapon was already operational.)

Anyway it serve many folds... For US part, defence budget continue to roll in pretty fast. For Japan, this weapon is very dangerous, so they could petition with their own people to let US continue her presence there... and for China... well she could ensure that carriers do not dare to venture too close to coast.

Oh... and one more thing about laser CIWS, I think it is about time people stop using it as a trump card for many reason as was argued and discussed for a zillion years already and I am not going to start this discussion again.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

rhino123 said:

Oh... and one more thing about laser CIWS, I think it is about time people stop using it as a trump card for many reason as was argued and discussed for a zillion years already and I am not going to start this discussion again.

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Actually challenge was talking about airborne lasers, but it'll be hard for any turret emplacement (shipboard or airborne) to track a small, manouevering, hypersonic target and any airborne or laser ciws may only get a chance in the boost phase, but it'll be thousands of km away that it'll hardly matter. the whole talk of laser ciws will be more useful for Ashm than ASBM/BAMmers.
I think the development of laser weapons may warrant discussion in the near future as the technology matures, but the effect on BAMmers will be minimal.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Bltizo said:

Actually challenge was talking about airborne lasers, but it'll be hard for any turret emplacement (shipboard or airborne) to track a small, manouevering, hypersonic target and any airborne or laser ciws may only get a chance in the boost phase, but it'll be thousands of km away that it'll hardly matter. the whole talk of laser ciws will be more useful for Ashm than ASBM/BAMmers.
I think the development of laser weapons may warrant discussion in the near future as the technology matures, but the effect on BAMmers will be minimal.

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As pointed out before in some time ago. Laser, be it airborne or shipborne or landborne is useful when it is targeted against ballistic missiles if it was not in the final entry stage, which mean the warhead was not released yet. And that would involve the ballistic missile still in space or during launch time.

However after the warhead had been release and it was coming down, even if it was airborne laser, was it really useful?

Laser was only a concentrated beam of light energy that could burn through almost any surface material. And it would be very useful if there are substance (explosive) inside the warhead and the laser might detonate the explosive. However if the warhead is a solid piece of material without any third or forth material in it, then all laser could do is to punch a hole in the warhead.

Laser is also useful in blinding enemy's detecting devices or burn the optic of the sensor and stuff like that. And that is that.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

rhino123 said:

As pointed out before in some time ago. Laser, be it airborne or shipborne or landborne is useful when it is targeted against ballistic missiles if it was not in the final entry stage, which mean the warhead was not released yet. And that would involve the ballistic missile still in space or during launch time.

However after the warhead had been release and it was coming down, even if it was airborne laser, was it really useful?

Laser was only a concentrated beam of light energy that could burn through almost any surface material. And it would be very useful if there are substance (explosive) inside the warhead and the laser might detonate the explosive. However if the warhead is a solid piece of material without any third or forth material in it, then all laser could do is to punch a hole in the warhead.

Laser is also useful in blinding enemy's detecting devices or burn the optic of the sensor and stuff like that. And that is that.

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I agree completely with what you said that lasers are only in the boost and space-flight stages.

But if a laser is able to keep its beam (i.e.: the turret can keep "tracking") the warhead, then it could damage the optics/guidance systems of the ASBM in the terminal stage. It won't be able to blow up or probably even melt through the warhead but could intefere with guidance, so that the warhead will miss.

My question is whether any seaborne or airborne (or land-based) laser "turret" would be capable of tracking the manouevering, mach 10 warhead for a sufficient amount of time to damage the electronics (which would probably be hardened against ECM, not to mention atmospheric reentry). If the laser source was at a greater distance from where the warhead will drop in, the laser emplacement won't have to swivel as great, but laser strength will be greatly depleted. If the laser was say, beneath the warhead on a ship, then the turret will have to keep moving to track it on its evasive manouevering but will obviously be stronger due to shorter distance.

Just some food for thought -- I think in the forseeable future any laser based systems won't be capable of intercepting any hypothetical BAMmers in the terminal phase; ECM and maybe SM-3 will try to take that role (how well the latter does, imho is still in question).

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

I think people's imagination are running ahead of reality in regards to lasers. I've seen all those pics of "successful" tests against missiles. Something that seems to be overlooked that if it's so successful against missiles, it should even do better against aircraft. It's like a comment I heard recently in regards to all these ghost hunting shows on TV in the US. If all these shows are actually discovering ghosts, shouldn't it be big news in the news media? A new anti-aircraft defense using lasers! It should be replacing SM-3s on Aegis cruisers. No need for anti-aircraft missiles anymore. One airborne laser could probably wipeout anything a country like Iran flies into the air. A revolution in air defense has just taken place. Yet you hear nothing of it like all these ghosts being discovered.