Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

SampanViking said:

Where did I leave my tinfoil hat.....?

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The lizards that control China took it from you!

Anyway I basically have to agree with Popeye. The amount of buzz we've been hearing about the ASBM program indicates that China has been making a lot of progress there but I still wouldn't go as far as some have on this forum, talking as if it's an obvious fact that China has hundreds of these things tested and deployed. We don't know exactly what stage the program is in, but we can be fairly certain that it's probably a later stage. I've seen one truly convincing bit of evidence for actual ASBM testing, and that is the Google Earth pictures of carrier-shaped targets with big craters in them somewhere in central China. However, there's been no official roll-out of the program. So while the PLA probably has working prototypes right now they probably haven't gone into production just yet.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

I've seen one truly convincing bit of evidence for actual ASBM testing, and that is the Google Earth pictures of carrier-shaped targets with big craters in them somewhere in central China.

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Sey what??? Post the link... please!!

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

I've seen one truly convincing bit of evidence for actual ASBM testing, and that is the Google Earth pictures of carrier-shaped targets with big craters in them somewhere in central China.

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I'm not quite sold as that imagery being "truly convincing". After looking at the time scales involved on Google Earth, those craters at that particular site were made sometime between Oct 22, 2005 and Sept 9, 2006. There is also newer and older imagery showing the site in different states of repair.

Could the site be a ASBM testing site for carrier targets? Sure. The site could also be many more things. Is it testing damage to concrete runways? Is is testing conventional bombing accuracy and not ASBM testing?

Yes, we can all observe this testing and/or training area, but do we have a preponderance of the evidence that makes it a ASBM carrier killer facility?

Put that carrier sized target on some rail tracks, then it would be more convincing, it would reflect carrier targeting rather than concrete runway penetration testing.

imagery at Google Earth: 40 22' 13.69"N, 99 51' 30.78"E Use the "clock symbol" to scroll through different date acquisitions

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

bd popeye said:

lol!..

[qimg]http://i39.tinypic.com/11cb8mf.jpg[/qimg]

This is what I think..

I think China has said missile. Probably tested on shore. BUT >> Not at sea.

The US Admrials/Generals have been for the last several years been building China as the next foe of the US. So in order to keep those defense dollars rolling in they say what they have to to keep those defense bucks rolling in. There's much truth in what they say.

And don't get me wrong China is a concern of the US DoD. A big concern.

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Hey I have complained before about you posting me and my cats picture without permission

Regarding the Carrier Target, you will find it as part of Martian's post in post 91 of this thread. When I first saw it I wondered what was the point as we all know that the PLA can strike a fixed position with a SRBM etc without any difficulty and so simply being able to hit a fixed Carrier sized object seemed a bit retrogressive.

I looked again and noted the circle which enclosed the rectangular feature and then surmised that what I was looking at was not a fixed object but a very large turntable. If the speed and direction can be varied at a rate comparable to that of a Carrier at Sea, then I think you have an effective test if you aim for the furthest ends.

The lizards that control China took it from you!

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Damn those Lizards!!

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

jantxv said:

I'm not quite sold as that imagery being "truly convincing". After looking at the time scales involved on Google Earth, those craters at that particular site were made sometime between Oct 22, 2005 and Sept 9, 2006. There is also newer and older imagery showing the site in different states of repair.

Could the site be a ASBM testing site for carrier targets? Sure. The site could also be many more things. Is it testing damage to concrete runways? Is is testing conventional bombing accuracy and not ASBM testing?

Yes, we can all observe this testing and/or training area, but do we have a preponderance of the evidence that makes it a ASBM carrier killer facility?

Put that carrier sized target on some rail tracks, then it would be more convincing, it would reflect carrier targeting rather than concrete runway penetration testing.

imagery at Google Earth: 40 22' 13.69"N, 99 51' 30.78"E Use the "clock symbol" to scroll through different date acquisitions

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To be honest I didn't know about the time scales I was just sort of lazy and took Martian's post at face value. I don't have time to fact-check everyone's posts you know!

Also, Sampan, I went back and looked at the Google Earth pics, and I didn't see anything that made me think the "circle" formation under the "rectangle" formation moved around at all. In fact you can see all sorts of texturing and holes in the "circle" that indicate that it's just dirt.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

The Circle is just dirt, only the rectangle needs to move and the circle describes its arc perfectly. Also is it concrete? It looks a bit shiny to me and could be a structure like a swing bridge rather than your classic railway turntable. Net result is same.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Quick addendum

Look at that picture again. The impact damage looks far more like a peeled metal skin than it does an impact on concrete. there are no radial fractures which a solid impact would produce (just like you see on the moon).

Here the missile appears to have punched through the rectangle and exploded beneath it, as you can see quite clearly on the top impact zone, where the debris is clearly spreading from underneath the structure.

There is also a structure on the right hand side which is pretty much where you would expect to see a power control bunker for such a structure if it were movable.

In short I think that not only do you have a something the same size as a Carrier Flight deck, but that you also have a moveable structure constructed the same way and from the same materials as a Carrier flight deck, so that the facility can test not only accuracy but also penetration and potential damage assessments. These are after all, the very things you would be wanting to test with such a facility

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

There is a video on You-Tube that depicts the engagement kill chain for a DF-21D against an aircraft carrier

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

^^ show me a video of an actual test on a large target underway at sea at 30 knots..under the cover of ECM and SM3 missiles. Then we will talk.

No doubt China has this weapon. But have they really..I mean really tested the DF-21???

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

bd popeye said:

No doubt China has this weapon. But have they really..I mean really tested the DF-21???

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And what stage is the project at? Does the lack of a publicly known test indicate that China does not have a functioning missile just yet or does it just mean the tests have been super secret? How long will it take from the testing stage (which the project may or may not be in) to get the missile in production and deployed, in significant numbers?

We just don't know the answers to these questions. With information we have access to now, we can't know. There's really very little solid information out there about China's ASBM project. There's lots of fanboy dreaming and "educated guesses" (read: probably half-made-up BS) from the US Navy. We know the project is out there, and that it has advanced quite a bit in recent years. But beyond that we don't know anything for sure.