Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Jeff Head · Oct 19, 2006

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

BLUEJACKET said:
Please red the whole article. Below are exerts related to our topic:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I have read that entire article and though some of the descriptions are similar to scenarios I myself have put forth in my

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

, I am not impressed. My series was a work of fiction with some significant stretches, and technological innovations necessary to make it plausible. Short of things we are all wholly unaware of, those gains and developments simply do not exist in the current environment to make what he is saying plausible, IMHO.

The current rocket torpedoes are not going to work to prevent the US from coming over. They are too short range (meaning a sub has to get close enough to a carrier to fire them, and to do that when the carrier is in transit at over 30 knots means the sub will be heard and prosecuted long before it can do so) and they are not intelligent. In addition, as you know, the Pacific Ocean is HUGE, the Russians and the Chinese in particular do not have enough submarines to hope to prevent the US Navy from plowing those waves across to WESTPAC. Even if they did have the numbers, like I have said before, finding and prosecuting a US CSG that is buttoned up will prove extremely difficult and dangerous for them.

Corpus' was a Brig. General in the Phillipines and has a very interesting background himself, to say the least. Although there is some merit to the overall consideration, IMHO, he loses it on the details, particularly given the current technological and military realities.

BLUEJACKET · Oct 19, 2006

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Jeff Head said:
The current rocket torpedoes are not going to work to rpevent the US from coming over. They are too short range and they are not intelligent. In addition, as you know, the Paific Ocean is HUGE, the Russians and the Chinese in particular do not have enough submarines to hope to prevent the US Navy from plowing those waves across to WESTPAC. Even if they did have the numbers, like I have said before, finding and prosecuting a US CSG that is buttoned up will prove extremely difficult and dangerous for them.

Any future high seas confrontation involving US carriers is not going to happen very soon, and those new missiles will get more range with time. Like I pointed out already, unless a carrier is stealth and/or submerged (even during flight ops) it will always be in someone's crosshairs. Even then , there are anti-stealth & ASW techniques that don't stand still either.

IDonT · Oct 19, 2006

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

In so doing, the US will be crossing thousands of miles of sea lanes of communication (SLOC) that can easily become a gauntlet of deadly Chinese and Russian submarines lying in ambush with bottom-rising sea mines, supercavitating rocket torpedoes, and supersonic cruise missiles that even aircraft carrier battle groups have no known defense against.

Those same Submarines will still need to cross thousands of miles of their own SLOC. Please see the battle of the Atlantic in both World War I and II for the US response to the submarine. The USN has wargamed the anticipated third battle of the Atlantic since the cold war and neither the Russians nor the Chinese have the level of Submarine threat that the USSR had.

Supersonic cruise missiles now in their inventories can defeat and sink US aircraft carriers. The second spike is an array of supersonic and highly accurate cruise missiles, some with range of 300km or more, that can be delivered by submarines, aircraft, surface ships or even common trucks (which are ideal for use in terrain like that of Iran along the Persian Gulf). These supersonic cruise missiles travel at more than twice the speed of sound (mach 2.5), or faster than a rifle bullet. They can be armed with conventional, anti-radiation, thermobaric, or electro-magnetic pulse warheads, or even nuclear warheads if need be. The Aegis missile defense system and the Phalanx Close-in Defense weapons of the US Navy are ineffective against these supersonic cruise missiles.

USN routinely shoots down mach 3 and above drones in livefire Vandal Exercise. SM3 and the upcoming active radar SM-6, RAM, and ESSM are USN's answer to these hype up missiles. The faster the missile, the easier it is to spoof. All the ship has to do is make it lose tracking for a few seconds and it is dozens of miles of course.

No country routinely practices shooting at a carrier

The first of these spikes consists of medium- and short-range ballistic missiles (modified and improved DF 21s/CSS-5 and DF 15s) with terminally guided maneuverable re-entry vehicles with circular error probability of 10 meters. DF 21s/CSS-5s can hit slow-moving targets at sea up to 2,500km away.

No proof. China has not had any exercise that has shown this capability.

But there is a third spike which is equally dreadful. This is the deadly SHKVAL or "Squall" rocket torpedo developed by Russia and passed on to China. It is like an under-water missile. It weighs 6,000lbs and travels at 200 knots or 230mph, with a range of 7,500 yards. It is guided by autopilot and with its high speed, makes evasive maneuvers by carriers or nuclear submarines highly difficult. It is truly a submarine and carrier buster; and again, the US and its allies have no known defense against such a supercavitating rocket torpedo

.

Unguided + short range equals ineffective. How would expect a submarine to get within 7,500 yards off a carrier moving at 30+ knots without being detected?

The fourth spike consists of extra-large, bottom-rising, rocket-propelled sea mines laid by submarines along the projected paths of advancing carrier battle groups. These sea mines are designed specifically for targeting aircraft carriers. They can be grouped in clusters so that they will hit the carriers in barrages.

Yes, because the USN has no known anti-mine capability. Lets see, extra large mine that rest at the bottom, laid at projected paths, wow thats really hard to find.

The final spike of the mace is a fleet of old fighter aircraft (China has thousands of them) modified as unmanned combat aerial vehicles fitted with extra fuel tanks and armed with stand-off anti-ship missiles. They are also packed with high explosives so that after firing off their precision-guided anti-ship missiles on the battle group, they will then finish their mission by dive-bombing "kamikaze" style into their targets.

1.) USN airwing will shot these down.
2.) You need to guide them over the horizon
3.) IF they are flown remotely, how secure is their communications. IF a single Growler can sever this connection and remove the threat, then this is pure fiction.

Any future high seas confrontation involving US carriers is not going to happen very soon, and those new missiles will get more range with time. Like I pointed out already, unless a carrier is stealth and/or submerged (even during flight ops) it will always be in someone's crosshairs. Even then , there are anti-stealth & ASW techniques that don't stand still either.

Not unless the shooter is shot down first. You cant detect a carrier over the horizon without first flying there in a very vulnerable surveillance plane.

Jeff Head · Oct 19, 2006

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

BLUEJACKET said:
Any future high seas confrontation involving US carriers is not going to happen very soon, and those new missiles will get more range with time. Like I pointed out already, unless a carrier is stealth and/or submerged (even during flight ops) it will always be in someone's crosshairs. Even then , there are anti-stealth & ASW techniques that don't stand still either.

Those supercavitating torpedoes have not been much improved upon in some time. In time, if current trends continue, there will certainly be more threats, but right now, very few if any nations can get a Carrier Strike Group in their crosshairs once the balloons have gone up and said vessels are buttoned up for combat and wartime ROEs.

That's the simple fact of the matter as it stands...and the US will have more money and resource to apply to keeping it that way than others will expend in changing it. Not that certain technologies and asymetrical strategies can't change things, just that the event horizon, short of some significant breakthroughs that we are not aware of, appears to be out there a long ways.

Finn McCool · Oct 19, 2006

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

So in answer to the title of this thread, I think we can declare that the best, perhaps only way to realistically sink a fully escorted and ready USN carrier is with another carrier battle group.

I've noticed something...a lot of our more nationalistic Chinese friends have not been too eager to read or write in this thread.

adeptitus · Oct 19, 2006

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

IDonT said:
No country routinely practices shooting at a carrier

I think only the USN sink/scuttle carriers & large LHD's in target pratice/tests. Everyone else tow them to the scrapyard.

BLUEJACKET said:
Please red the whole article. Below are exerts related to our topic:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I read through the article and cannot understand why the author assumes the US is necessarily at a geopolitical disadvantage. In the event of a US-PRC military conflict, it's very unlikely that the Russians would get involved militarily on PRC's side. The US has Guam and Okinawa, plus Japan would prolly be happy to assist sinking any PLAN assets with glee, so they can retain their powerful position unchallenged in the East Asian sea.

Also, I doubt anyone is dumb enough to start a land war vs. the PRC on its own turf today. The PLA has enough assets to send than your tanks can hold in ammo.

Other posters have already pointed out the fallacy in the author's assumption to the Shkval's capabilities, and lack of range. And if Iran equips its submarine with nuclear weapons to strike Washington DC, that'd be a suicidal move that'd end with Iran being wiped off the map. The US has more nukes in service and deployed around the world than anyone else. The Iranians might get all emotional on TV, but I haven't seen them blowing themselves up yet. It's usuall the Arabs doing that.

BLUEJACKET · Oct 20, 2006

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

adeptitus said:
The Iranians might get all emotional on TV, but I haven't seen them blowing themselves up yet. It's usuall the Arabs doing that.

They said already that their suicide bombers ready to strike at western targets around the world. I also think that there won't be any real US-PRC war, like there wasn't US-USSR war- maybe Cold War II.
This link is outdated, but it has some interesting history of Soviet anti-carrier exercises-

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

utelore · Oct 21, 2006

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

I dont think it would be that hard. I mean look at the golden bullet strike with even a smaller harpoon type ASM which could then cause say a 2,000 lbs JDAM to detonate and then maybe more on board weapons systems cooking off.

what ya think Popeye....2000 lbs aircrat bomb going off internal inside the carrier? would it sink??

bd popeye · Oct 21, 2006

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

My fellow American Ute sez;

what ya think Popeye....2000 lbs aircrat bomb going off internal inside the carrier? would it sink??

Sink it? a single 2000lb bomb? Nope. Lots of damage though and that depends where it went off. In the hangar or flight deck there would be tremendous damage. Below decks ,second deck and below. Greater damage and casualities. Multipule 2000lb bomb strike would caue serious mission killing damage. Now that coupled with some well placed torpedo strike may sink it. But the opposing force would have to get close enough to kill it. And that would be very tough to penatrate the multi-layerd US defense.

On May 14th, 2005 the USN sank the USS America(CV-66) somewhere out in the Atlantic. Although it is classified what sort of action was taken by the USN to attack the ship this is know. After multiplie attcks the America was finally sunk by pre-set internal munitions as set by the USN EOD teams.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Stricken from the Navy List on the day of her decommissioning, America was planned to be sold for scrapping. However, the carrier was sunk in the Atlantic Ocean, approximately 300 miles off the Virginia coast, on 14 May 2005, following a series of tests consisting of underwater and surface simulated attacks on the ship. In a letter to a coalition of veterans and former crewmembers who offered to make the carrier a museum, Vice Chief of Naval Operations Adm. John B. Nathman explained: "America will make one final and vital contribution to our national defense, this time as a live-fire test and evaluation platform. America's legacy will serve as a footprint in the design of future carriers — ships that will protect the sons, daughters, grandchildren and great-grandchildren of America veterans. We will conduct a variety of comprehensive tests above and below the waterline collecting data for use by naval architects and engineers in creating the nation's future carrier fleet.

"It is essential we make those ships as highly survivable as possible. When that mission is complete, the America will slip quietly beneath the sea. I know America has a very special place in your hearts, not only for the name, but also for your service aboard her. I ask that you understand why we selected this ship for this one last crucial mission and make note of the critical nature of her final service."

America received five battle stars for her service in the Vietnam War.

I hate to use Wikepedia as a source but this info has been bantied about in US forums for some time. It probally has some validity.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

)

Decommissioning
Originally scheduled to undergo Navy SLEP in the late 1990s, CV-66 fell victim to budget cuts and was retired early by the U.S. Navy. She had suffered a major powerplant failure during her last cruise - ("parts went up the flues", said a crewman). She was decommissioned 9 August 1996 and was stricken from the naval roster. Thereafter she harbored at the Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Though already decommissioned, she was awarded the 1995 Battenberg Cup in recognition of her crew's achievements in her last full year in service.

America was chosen to be a live-fire test and evaluation platform in 2005, to aid the design of future aircraft carriers. There was some objection to a ship being named for the nation being deliberately sunk at sea, and a committee of her former crew members and other supporters attempted to save the ship for use as a museum ship. Their efforts were ultimately unsuccessful. On 25 February 2005 a ceremony to salute the USS America and her crew was held at the ship's pier in Philadelphia, attended by former crew members and various dignitaries. She departed the Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility on 19 April 2005 to conduct the aforementioned tests.

The experiments lasted approximately four weeks. The Navy battered America with explosives, both underwater and above the surface, watching from afar and through monitoring devices placed on the vessel. These explosions were designed to simulate attacks by torpedoes, cruise missiles and perhaps a small boat suicide attack like the one that damaged the destroyer USS Cole in Yemen in 2000.

After the completion of the tests, America was sunk in a controlled scuttling on 14 May 2005 at approximately 1130, although the sinking was not publicized until six days later. At the time, no warship of that size had ever been sunk, and effects were closely monitored; theoretically the tests would reveal data about how supercarriers respond to battle damage. The ship rests about 17,000 ft. below the Atlantic Ocean surface, roughly 250 miles off the North Carolina coast.

Jeff Head · Oct 21, 2006

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

bd popeye said:
Sink it? a single 2000lb bomb? Nope. Lots of damage though and that depends where it went off. In the hangar or flight deck there would be tremendous damage. Below decks ,second deck and below. Greater damage and casualities. Multipule 2000lb bomb strike would caue serious mission killing damage. Now that coupled with some well placed torpedo strike may sink it. But the opposing force would have to get close enough to kill it. And that would be very tough to penatrate the multi-layerd US defense.

On May 14th, 2005 the USN sank the USS America(CV-66) somewhere out in the Atlantic. Although it is classified what sort of action was taken by the USN to attack the ship this is know. After multiplie attcks the America was finally sunk by pre-set internal munitions as set by the USN EOD teams.

That's what I heard too popeye, from people currently active. She took MANY hits from conventional weapons designed to simulate attacks getting through the CSG defenses, both air attacks (SSMs) and subsurface (torpedoes) and she wouldn't go down even after multiple attacks using various weaponry. Ultimately she had to be scuttled.

Though I would have much rather seen her preserved, even in her live fire and ultimate scuttle exercises, she continued to serve her namesake and taught us a lot that you can be bet is being applied as we speak.

Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Jeff Head

General

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot

IDonT

Senior Member

Jeff Head

General

Finn McCool

Captain

adeptitus

Captain

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot

utelore

Junior Member

bd popeye

The Last Jedi

Jeff Head

General