Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

BLUEJACKET said:

If we have the USN & AF combining ops/depended on each other, then the USN isn't entirely autonomous in what it does!

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Just because they work hand in hand on joint operations at times does not at all mean that the Navy cannot also operate autonomously in the main. As you should well know...it does.

For example, a carrier in the middle of the Pacific does not need to, and rarely does depend at all on USAF assetts...in most cases they could not get there to help in a crisis anyway...particularly for strike at sea issues.

In operations like those in Afghanistan, Iraq, or Yugoslavia, they can and do also work together.

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Here's my list of nations that have the military capability to kill a carrier that is escorted by a CBG. (Not in any particular order)

1. Russia: For obvious reasons. This was essentially the navy's purpose during the Soviet Era.
2. China: I'm certain that the PLAAF and the PLAN working together could sink or mission kill 1 or 2 American carriers, but more than that is out of the question.
3. France: With a carrier itself and a large and modern navy, it could do the job. It's hard to imagine a scenario where the French would have to do this though.
4. UK: The same reason as France.
5. India: India has a carrier itself and will soon have two. It's navy is stronger than the PLAN in my opinion.
6. Japan: The JMSDF would pose a major challenge to any Varyag-led PLAN BG.

Some other nations could argueably be added, but they cannot sink a carrier without lots of luck and the situation favoring them, so I didn't add them.

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

My man Finn from the "OC" sez;

Some other nations could argueably be added, but they cannot sink a carrier without lots of luck and the situation favoring them, so I didn't add them.

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Yes you forgot the one nation that could mission kill or sink a CV, LPH,ADS, DDH,CVF etc type ship. The US could without a doubt could mission kill any aircraft carrier of any type..

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Currently I only think China, Japan, and the U.S. have the ability to have a good carrier defense and only the U.S. currently has a carrier with China in line for one.

That's really what we're talking about here. A carrier all alone would be easy pickings, it's the carrier defense that has to be worried about and I don't think India, Russia, France, or the UK have nearly the capablility of the U.S., China, or Japan in that respect. So, if we're talking about carriers from any of the former nations, it would not be all that hard.

Also, overwhelming the defense is a very simple tactic any nation with enough anti-ship missiles can use. Then of course you can send out a lot of subs. There currently isn't a way to knock down torpedoes that I know of.

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Vlad Plasmius said:

Currently I only think China, Japan, and the U.S. have the ability to have a good carrier defense and only the U.S. currently has a carrier with China in line for one.

That's really what we're talking about here. A carrier all alone would be easy pickings, it's the carrier defense that has to be worried about and I don't think India, Russia, France, or the UK have nearly the capablility of the U.S., China, or Japan in that respect. So, if we're talking about carriers from any of the former nations, it would not be all that hard.

Also, overwhelming the defense is a very simple tactic any nation with enough anti-ship missiles can use. Then of course you can send out a lot of subs. There currently isn't a way to knock down torpedoes that I know of.

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Carriers don't go into combat on their own, so excluding consideration of their escorts' defensive capabilities is somewhat unrealistic. As to the defensive ability of the carriers themselves (ie last line of defence), Smaller carriers have defence measures almost on a par with CVNs. for example an Invincible class CVS has three CIWS mounts (Phalanx or Goalkeeper) as well as chaff launchers, ECM, ESM, long range air search radar, surface search radar etc and command and control over escorting ships weapon systems and aircraft. The same can be said for other western carriers such as Charles de Gaulle, Garibaldi and Principe de Asturias (although the actual systems vary from ship to ship, their overall abilities are very similar). The smaller ships often have superior ASW capability as that was their primary function when designed (as opposed to the US CVNs which are primarily for air defence and power projection)

In combat the opinions of experts count for little as do predictions of how combat will develop based on comparative force levels, eg in the Falklands War Argentina had over 200 combat aircraft against the Royal Navy's 28 Sea Harriers and 10 RAF GR3 harriers; the 'experts' predicted a quick victory for Argentina. Fleet Air Arm pilots took a different view: Commander 'Sharkey' Ward , CO of 801 sqn aboard Invincible simply told his pilots "We are not outnumbered, we are in a Target Rich Environment!".

The Results are never as clear cut as they may appear on paper, and all a navy can do is prepare as much as possible for every eventuality. No ship is unsinkable, but the price of sinking some (eg US CVNs and their associated CSGs) can be more than an enemy may be prepared to pay (ie the loss of a high percentage of their air and surface assets).

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Carriers don't go into combat on their own, so excluding consideration of their escorts' defensive capabilities is somewhat unrealistic.

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That isn't even remotely what I was saying. I was saying that nations like Russia, UK, France, and India don't have the same defensive capability as the U.S. and China do for a carrier. I'm saying that only China, the U.S. and Japan have the kind of anti-air, anti-ship, and anti-sub capability, especially anti-air that makes the carrier hard to sink. I mean, obviously a small attack would be deflected, but only China, Japan, and the U.S. have the capability to create a sufficient air defense shield to really be considered nearly unsinkable. Of course, sufficient missile quantities would overwhelm even the tightest defense.

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

I was saying that nations like Russia, UK, France, and India don't have the same defensive capability as the U.S. and China do for a carrier

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well in what fantasy world does PLANs "magnificent" AAW&ASW come even near the ones that eq Russians have? Or now as Aster is getting ready, the French or UK has?? US is the sole navy that can offer the capacity that you explained, but China?? Lets try to keep at least some sort of reality in check...

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?



A picture from Yahoo News showing pictures from Iranian TV which claim that they show a US Carrier in the Persian Gulf being overflown by a Iranian Drone.

Any comments?

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

SampanViking said:

A picture from Yahoo News showing pictures from Iranian TV which claim that they show a US Carrier in the Persian Gulf being overflown by a Iranian Drone.

Any comments?

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Iranian TV claims a lot of things - including that Hezbollah destroyed an Israeli corvette in addition to the attack on the Hanit, which (as far as I know) was a load of nonsense.

So I won't comment further on this until there's an official statement or something from a credible source.

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Vlad Plasmius said:

That isn't even remotely what I was saying. I was saying that nations like Russia, UK, France, and India don't have the same defensive capability as the U.S. and China do for a carrier. I'm saying that only China, the U.S. and Japan have the kind of anti-air, anti-ship, and anti-sub capability, especially anti-air that makes the carrier hard to sink. I mean, obviously a small attack would be deflected, but only China, Japan, and the U.S. have the capability to create a sufficient air defense shield to really be considered nearly unsinkable. Of course, sufficient missile quantities would overwhelm even the tightest defense.

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Mate sorry but like Golly said you should check some facts before stating something like that. PLAN has only two operational AWD destroyers(type52c but we don't know anything about ther real operational status) while PLAN ASW capabilities are more then limited...

On other hand for example Spanish navy has 4 F-100 Aegis class frigates and they are building one more. Thats more then enough ships for protection of Spanish CBG.

French navy has two older AWD destroyers( Cassard class) that will soon receive Aster30 instead of Standard SM1mr, first Horizon class frigate is undergoing sea trails and French carrier Charles De Gaulle is armed with Aster15 for self defense.

As for Russian navy one Kirov class ship carries more air defense missiles then entire PLAN fleet had few years ago...