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- Thread starter bd popeye
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Lethe
Captain
And yet it clearly does; as demonstrated by a half-century of Arab inaction and accommodation post-1973, of clinging to diplomatic processes that, irrespective of their original intent, have subsequently proven to serve only to deflect from Israel's ongoing annexation of Palestinian lands and oppression of its peoples. In some ways I would like to think that we live in your world, a world where principles matter and the causes that once drove nations remain as vibrant today as in decades past; unfortunately I think @Overbom's skeptical realism approaches rather close to the truth.
This dream that Muslim or even just Arab nations are going to unite to take meaningful collective action that advances the cause of the Palestinian people is just that: a dream. I do not say that it is impossible, but that there is no evidence for it, and considerable evidence against it.
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The person is mad that he is denying existence of Europe and whats his problem if Europe become America vassal in Africa. it just confirm what is known about Turkey. US demographics will favor Indians, Armenians, Iranians etc Turkey does not have much to offer even assembly of Apple or Tesla will not add much.
US is in big trouble it's just the lawmakers are covering up the statistics, they can't hide the obvious- almost all the biggest American companies are retrenching, looting everywhere especially in their biggest chain Walmart, crumbling of infrastructures from train derailments, building collapse, explosion of drug and gun violence and biggest takes of all the pro-government medias propaganda are on the overdrives and Biden admin is attacking media that's not pro-Biden.
Xi: time to unleash Comrade Elon.
My point is not about the Palestinian cause. If it was just that, then yes, the Arab and Muslim nations would be occupied with their own little squabbles. The main reason for the conflict between Muslims and Israel is Jerusalem, more specifically, Al Aqsa mosque. That's the third most important holy site in Islam. Letting go of it, in Muslim belief, is equivalent to forfeiting an eternal after life in paradise and dooming oneself to eternal torment in hell. Can you see the parallel between this and what started the crusades more than a millenium ago? the difference here is that Muslims are cling faaaaarr more to their faith than Christians ever did during the crusades.
So for them, Al Aqsa mosque is non-negotiable. That's why whenever it gets stormed by Israeli police, armed conflict starts immediately after.
The reason for arab inaction post-1973, is that they tried and got absolutely reckt. Egypt was defeated and had to sign for peace, buy American weapons or lose Sinai, while in SA, king Faisal was assassinated (more happened but I'm too lazy to mention). So now their simply waiting for Israel's main supporter, the US, to lose its hegemon status. And they won't even do that if, as I said, Al Aqsa mosque (and east Jerusalem) was taken by Israel.
As for wether principles still matter or not, consider this: suppose the CPC deemed that letting Taiwan become fully independent and get integrated into western system wil cause them no harm strategically, or that preventing it is not worth the sacrifice required, will they actually do it? (don't forget that one-China, and Chinese rejuvenation following the century of humiliation, are also principles).
US and allies were like the Invincibles Lions of Mapogos during its heydays, but we are witnessing now in real time their twilight years of these Legendary Lions. Due to an over-ambition lion to assert dominance in the group it even killed off its brothers' cubs (as its brothers are just powerless). This very act weakened the group. The fearless Lions met with a brutal end. Perhaps we can draw a lesson from nature as saying goes nature is the best teacher.
Lethe
Captain
The analogy with Taiwan is interesting because both cases illustrate the limitations for external actors (Muslim nations, Beijing) who seek to avoid certain changes to the status quo (in Jerusalem or Taipei). There may well be a bright "red line" that cannot be crossed without dire consequences, but there are any number of incremental steps that can be taken that do not individually constitute a clear and dramatic line-crossing moment, but that collectively work to reshape the environment. They can walk right up to the red line, around the red line, under the red line. And at each juncture, if it is even minimally plausible to argue that the red line has not been crossed, there are powerful incentives to simply ignore the development or to respond in merely symbolic or ineffectual terms, because the alternative is fraught with costs and risks. One can see these "salami-slicing" dynamics are at work in Israel, Taiwan, the South China Sea, Ukraine...
Even as its relative power declines, the United States will remain a superpower that is deeply embedded in the Middle East and able to inflict its will upon it, even if only in destructive terms. I think it is more likely (which is not to say very likely) that internal dynamics within the United States may shift over time in ways that tend to isolationism and/or a change in attitude towards Israel. Of course China's engagement will continue to grow over time and work to dilute American influence, but I think we are several decades away from a point where Washington would refrain from doing X in the Middle East because it fears the response either from nations within the region, or from Beijing.
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