Many people say China will catch up or exceed U.S in military strength decades later.

vesicles

Colonel
Re: Many people say China will catch up or exceed U.S in military strength decades la

I hope you applied for the vacancy created by Mr Shi Yigongs depature:)

Yeah. I don't even want all his labs. They can just give me ONE of his labs. That's would be cool... And 2 million annual budget? That's a monster. To give you some perspective, the average annual budget for a professor in a top-ranking department is about $700,000. This is already top notch. I'm talking about labs in bioengineering dept at Johns Hopkins, UC San Fransisco, or Harvard. And Shi's budget was 3 times that. This is more than Nobel price caliber.

Talking about job hunting, I will start looking for a faculty position pretty soon, like in about 4-5 months. As soon as my recently submitted papers get accepted, I will start applying. And I will actually try Princeton, fingers crossed.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
Re: Many people say China will catch up or exceed U.S in military strength decades la

as for sea turtles having a hard time coping with the domestic environment, a lot of it is due to culture and bureaucracy, not state policy

Depends on what you mean by "domestic environment". In China, guanxi is everything, much more important than personal abilities. I'm sure plenty of scientists were miffed at Dr. Shi's return, and I've no doubt they'd like nothing more than make his life a living hell.

Like the chinese proverb says: a large tree attracts more wind.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
Re: Many people say China will catch up or exceed U.S in military strength decades la

Depends on what you mean by "domestic environment". In China, guanxi is everything, much more important than personal abilities. I'm sure plenty of scientists were miffed at Dr. Shi's return, and I've no doubt they'd like nothing more than make his life a living hell.

Like the chinese proverb says: a large tree attracts more wind.

yeah uhhh having studied the place for 8 years i am not the one that needs a lecture on how things work in China.
you over simplified things, by your logic all outstanding scientists in China should have no place for survival. but of course i'll have to caution you that plenty of former soviet scientists came to China in the 90s and have made great contributions. and aside from government sanctioned policies there are many other ways an individual sea turtle can work well with the domestic environment, you gotta see deeper than that.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
Re: Many people say China will catch up or exceed U.S in military strength decades la

I am definitely NOT saying they are turning them down. I was trying to explain why these scientists did not get nomination for the national academy of sciences, for which they are obviously qualified.

Yes. I guess you can say we human are conflicted. On the one hand, they want these scientists, but on the other hand, they don't want to look toooooo eager to have them. They don't want to be perceived as "begging" these scientists to come back. It's like they are telling them "hey, don't think you are all that and have all the leverage." "We are still the ones making the decision here." Haven't you met people who never admit they are wrong. It's the same thing.

they definitely are eager to have these ppl back. the Chinese government is a lot more pragmatic than you give them credit for.
the situation you have described doesnt only apply to sea turtles but all the new comers to the game. and sometimes even old players, if you know the story of Bo Xilai and Wang Yang.
the situation you have described are there but its not within the decision making body that it exists. the CCP would love to see the sea turtles cope well with the new environment, and there are ways to do that they just have to look.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Re: Many people say China will catch up or exceed U.S in military strength decades la

yeah uhhh having studied the place for 8 years i am not the one that needs a lecture on how things work in China.
you over simplified things, by your logic all outstanding scientists in China should have no place for survival. but of course i'll have to caution you that plenty of former soviet scientists came to China in the 90s and have made great contributions. and aside from government sanctioned policies there are many other ways an individual sea turtle can work well with the domestic environment, you gotta see deeper than that.

Never meant to lecture you, just wanted to comment about the peculiarities of China's work relations.

I'm not saying those scientists have no chance to survive, I'm just saying they face a pretty steep uphill battle.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
Re: Many people say China will catch up or exceed U.S in military strength decades la

Never meant to lecture you, just wanted to comment about the peculiarities of China's work relations.

I'm not saying those scientists have no chance to survive, I'm just saying they face a pretty steep uphill battle.

if these ppl would walk into China thinking they are facing a "battle" as you've suggested then they have already lost. they must learn the rules of the game and assimilate to it. trying to change the system isnt the wise thing to do especially for these ppl, that's the job of the entrepreneurs or politicians. unless someone is suggesting that Chinese culture naturally depletes one's ability to innovate, which i disagree with, then you can always find a way to do your job right.
 

tch1972

Junior Member
Re: Many people say China will catch up or exceed U.S in military strength decades la

Don't think there is a culture of accepting failures in China.

1. Mindset of losing "face"
2. people are eager for success so they can turn the final product into something marketable

But failures and setbacks is part and parcel of the R&D, essentially it a black-box testing with many unknown variables. Unless people changes their mindset, be patience and positive towards setbacks. The propensity is there for them to take the easy way out by doing reverse engineering.
 

vesicles

Colonel
Re: Many people say China will catch up or exceed U.S in military strength decades la

they definitely are eager to have these ppl back. the Chinese government is a lot more pragmatic than you give them credit for.
the situation you have described doesnt only apply to sea turtles but all the new comers to the game. and sometimes even old players, if you know the story of Bo Xilai and Wang Yang.
the situation you have described are there but its not within the decision making body that it exists. the CCP would love to see the sea turtles cope well with the new environment, and there are ways to do that they just have to look.

Many rulers in ancient China did conflicting things. They wanted help from people but never trusted them. A good example would be Liu Bei. He desperately wanted Zhuge Liang's help, but he also worried about Zhuge Liang taking too much of his power. People say that the main reason that Liu Bei decided to take out his million troops to avenge Guan Yu's death was to take the military command from Zhuge Liang. And even when on his death bed and when he even more desperately needed Zhuge Liang's assistance to help his incompetent son, Liu Bei tested Zhuge Liang for his loyalty and was ready to kill Zhuge Liang at moment's notice. And Zhuge Liang knew it. That's why he got so scared and immediately swore his loyalty to Liu and his son.

The CCP may have a similar syndrome here. The Chinese govn't wants these scientists because of their scientific training in the West. They are also aware that living in the West for so long also gives these scientists something else: the idea of free thinking and possibly even a belief in democracy. I would think one thing the govn't worries about is that these Western trained scientists may bring the idea of democracy with them. And we know how much the CCP "loves" democracy. So it would be impossible for the govn't to completely trust these "sea turtles". Giving them too much voice might risk some of them finally convincing the public that democracy is a good thing for China. At least, that would be one of the things that the CCP might worry about. So don't expect to be fully trusted by the govn't if you decide to go back. They shake your hands and even hug you, but they also keep an eye on you and make sure you don't say/do things out of line. The same thing happened before. In the 50's, many overseas Chinese came back to contribute to the development of the new China. At the time, the Chinese govn't also understood that they needed help and the education and experience that these scientists brought with them were invaluable. That's why they were welcomed with open arms and intensively advertised as a sign of the power and the attractiveness of the newly formed communist China. And guess what, many of these young scientists became some of the main targets in virtually all movements in China, including the cultural revolution. Many of them were suspected of spying. It just shows you how much they were trusted by the govn't.

Also nominating people to the national academy of sciences is not the job of the govn't. It was the scientists themselves who do that. It is highly possible that many existing members on the committee got jealous and feel threatened by these "sea turtles". They, in turn, wanted to show these see turtles who's the boss by not electing them. Note that all I was trying to explain was why these brilliant scientists were not elected to the national academy of sciences.

Things like this happens a lot in China. My own parents got similar treatment when they were working in China. My dad was publishing a lot of papers and was getting some serious attention in his field of research. His boss got jealous and kicked him off the team and told him that he could never do the same kind of research again. And my dad got harrassed no matter what else he wanted to do. It could be that they stopped ordering chemicals that he needed to do his experiments, or some of his instruments got moved away. My dad went so desperate he wanted to switch to theoretical physics because this is the one field that does not need any chemicals or equipment and he won't need any permission from his boss to do his research. That was also part of the reason that my dad eventually decided to come the States. AND when my mom wanted to come the States to visit my dad, she was thinking retiring early to keep her benefits with the Institute. This was a common practice at the time and everybody did it. but she could never get permission to retire. In the end, my mom had to quit and give up everything she and my dad earned while working there for 20+ years. Guess why? My dad's old boss was the head of the Institute and he was giving my mom a hard time because of my dad.

So when I say people do crazy stuff when they are jealous and feel threatened, I'm saying it with personal experience.
 
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Lion

Senior Member
Re: Many people say China will catch up or exceed U.S in military strength decades la

Many rulers in ancient China did conflicting things. They wanted help from people but never trusted them. A good example would be Liu Bei. He desperately wanted Zhuge Liang's help, but he also worried about Zhuge Liang taking too much of his power. People say that the main reason that Liu Bei decided to take out his million troops to avenge Guan Yu's death was to take the military command from Zhuge Liang. And even when on his death bed and when he even more desperately needed Zhuge Liang's assistance to help his incompetent son, Liu Bei tested Zhuge Liang for his loyalty and was ready to kill Zhuge Liang at moment's notice. And Zhuge Liang knew it. That's why he got so scared and immediately swore his loyalty to Liu and his son.

The CCP may have a similar syndrome here. The Chinese govn't wants these scientists because of their scientific training in the West. They are also aware that living in the West for so long also gives these scientists something else: the idea of free thinking and possibly even a belief in democracy. I would think one thing the govn't worries about is that these Western trained scientists may bring the idea of democracy with them. And we know how much the CCP "loves" democracy. So it would be impossible for the govn't to completely trust these "sea turtles". Giving them too much voice might risk some of them finally convincing the public that democracy is a good thing for China. At least, that would be one of the things that the CCP might worry about. So don't expect to be fully trusted by the govn't if you decide to go back. They shake your hands and even hug you, but they also keep an eye on you and make sure you don't say/do things out of line. The same thing happened before. In the 50's, many overseas Chinese came back to contribute to the development of the new China. At the time, the Chinese govn't also understood that they needed help and the education and experience that these scientists brought with them were invaluable. That's why they were welcomed with open arms and intensively advertised as a sign of the power and the attractiveness of the newly formed communist China. And guess what, many of these young scientists became some of the main targets in virtually all movements in China, including the cultural revolution. Many of them were suspected of spying. It just shows you how much they were trusted by the govn't.

Also nominating people to the national academy of sciences is not the job of the govn't. It was the scientists themselves who do that. It is highly possible that many existing members on the committee got jealous and feel threatened by these "sea turtles". They, in turn, wanted to show these see turtles who's the boss by not electing them. Note that all I was trying to explain was why these brilliant scientists were not elected to the national academy of sciences.

Things like this happens a lot in China. My own parents got similar treatment when they were working in China. My dad was publishing a lot of papers and was getting some serious attention in his field of research. His boss got jealous and kicked him off the team and told him that he could never do the same kind of research again. And my dad got harrassed no matter what else he wanted to do. It could be that they stopped ordering chemicals that he needed to do his experiments, or some of his instruments got moved away. My dad went so desperate he wanted to switch to theoretical physics because this is the one field that does not need any chemicals or equipment and he won't need any permission from his boss to do his research. That was also part of the reason that my dad eventually decided to come the States. AND when my mom wanted to come the States to visit my dad, she was thinking retiring early to keep her benefits with the Institute. This was a common practice at the time and everybody did it. but she could never get permission to retire. In the end, my mom had to quit and give up everything she and my dad earned while working there for 20+ years. Guess why? My dad's old boss was the head of the Institute and he was giving my mom a hard time because of my dad.

So when I say people do crazy stuff when they are jealous and feel threatened, I'm saying it with personal experience.

I believe it is the reverse of what u think....

Many westerner simply don't trust asian scientist. Simpily put it , is discrimination. Letting all these young bright Chinese scientist study overseas is good thing.

If you think I am BS, take a look at Tsien Hsue-shen and Taiwan scientist Lee who both expelled from their work just because of their races. Their accusation of both spying for China is total groundless.

I bet more or less, few of these young scientist will encounter such thing of discrimination. This will make them more determine to come back to China and make her stronger.
 
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