Littoral Combat Ships (LCS)

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Powerful !
Yes...this is what I was talking about earlier.

And...as to the talk about 26 "hulks"...watch and see. They will not be hulks in the least.

We have hopefully gotten past a bunch of idiots with dream caps on and are going to uparms the LCS that are put there, and will make them very useful, and I am confidant we will...along the lines of what I talked about above.

The FFGs simply have to be fighting ships and true FFGs. The Freedom LCS can be turned into decnt FFGs with better armament, better sensors, larger crews, and the modular spaced used for permanent capabilities. The Independence LCS can also be similarly upgunned, but then used for working wth the Amphibious groups, and along the lines I suggested above.

something like thjis is going to happen and the US will end up better for it in the end.

not as good as if we have built 56 true FFgs from the beginning...but with 13 Indpendence class geared toward assisting Amphibs, ASW, and counter mine, and 3 Freedom class as essentially lighter FFGs and then 30 true FFGs, the US Navy will have benefited a lot...even if we did waist ten years getting there.

Then with all the Burkes and the coming Burke IIs and all the Virginias, etc., the US Navy will remain the bulwark for ensuring freedom of the seas for the next 50 years just like they have for the last 50 years.

Watch and see if it is not si.
 
Aug 11, 2017
Sep 12, 2016
... OHP Frigates (EDIT hastily retired
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so that LCSs could ... shine)

...
now

"The new Secretary of the Navy, Richard Spencer,
...
When asked if the recently decommissioned Perry Class Frigates could be brought back into the fleet, he didn’t hesitate.

“The OHP is a heck of a simple boat that has a beautiful mission and that’s a possibility and we should take a look at taking those out of mothballs,” he said."

source is NavyTimes
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...
... and the story goes on:

"But looking forward to the Navy’s stated goal of increasing its fleet size to 355 ships, Spencer said part of his planning will include considering recommissioning the seven Perrys (FFG-7)."

SECNAV Spencer: Oliver Hazard Perry Frigates Could be Low-Cost Drug Interdiction Platforms
September 20, 2017
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If recommissioned, seven retired Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates would serve as basic surface platforms, stay close to U.S. shores, assist drug interdiction efforts or patrol the Arctic without an extensive upgrade to its combat systems, the Secretary of the Navy said on Wednesday.


SECNAV Richard V. Spencer told reporters he and Chief of Naval Operations Adm. John Richardson are studying how the Navy faces-off a threat and how the Navy can best match the different types of threats.

“Is a (guided-missile destroyer) DDG the thing to put for drug interdictions down in the Caribbean? I don’t think so,” Spencer said.
“Do we actually have something in the portfolio right now?”

If pressed, Spencer said he’d task the Littoral Combat Ship with assisting the Coast Guard’s drug interdiction work in U.S. 4th Fleet in the short term. But looking forward to the Navy’s stated goal of increasing its fleet size to 355 ships, Spencer said part of his planning will include considering recommissioning the seven Perrys (FFG-7).

“One of the things we might look at is bringing the Perry-class to do a limited drug interdiction mode,” Spencer said.

Since December, when the Navy revealed the goal of building up to a 355-ship fleet, some analysts have called for reactivating several ships from the inactive fleet. Currently, the Navy has some 50 warships considered part of the inactive fleet, but these ships are varying states of repair.

While some analysts have called to reactivate other sidelined ships, such as three older Ticonderoga-class cruisers (CG-47) inactive for dozen years or the conventionally powered Kitty Hawk (CV-63) aircraft carrier, the Navy is really only considering bringing back the Perry-class ships for now.

In June, when discussing the prospect of reactivating older ships including the Perry-class frigates, CNO Richardson said the process is complicated. As a ship class nears the end of its anticipated life, the Navy doesn’t invest a lot of money into keeping the class modernized, opting instead to invest money in current programs.

In the 1980s, the service reactivated ships from the inactive fleet as part of the Reagan Administration’s drive to a 600-ship Navy – most notably the four Iowa-class battleships (BB-61) from World War II.

What makes the Perry-class intriguing is the relative ease and low-cost to put these ships back in service, to perform specific roles, Spencer said. Supporting his point, Spencer mentioned the March deal where Taiwan spent $35,000 per-ship to put two Perry-class frigates back to sea.

“No combat systems, but sea-ready, navigation ready, radar ready out the door,” Spencer said. “That’s a pretty inexpensive proven platform right there,” Spencer said. “Can you arm it up with Tomahawks? No.”

But for drug interdiction or operating in low threat areas, Spencer said the frigates could accomplish these important missions without expensive upgrades to weapons systems.

so today I'm even more curious about what I asked Yesterday at 7:16 AM
DOES THE USN WANT A FFG(X)?
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Yes...this is what I was talking about earlier.

And...as to the talk about 26 "hulks"...watch and see. They will not be hulks in the least.

We have hopefully gotten past a bunch of idiots with dream caps on and are going to uparms the LCS that are put there, and will make them very useful, and I am confidant we will...along the lines of what I talked about above.

The FFGs simply have to be fighting ships and true FFGs. The Freedom LCS can be turned into decnt FFGs with better armament, better sensors, larger crews, and the modular spaced used for permanent capabilities. The Independence LCS can also be similarly upgunned, but then used for working wth the Amphibious groups, and along the lines I suggested above.

something like thjis is going to happen and the US will end up better for it in the end.

not as good as if we have built 56 true FFgs from the beginning...but with 13 Indpendence class geared toward assisting Amphibs, ASW, and counter mine, and 3 Freedom class as essentially lighter FFGs and then 30 true FFGs, the US Navy will have benefited a lot...even if we did waist ten years getting there.

Then with all the Burkes and the coming Burke IIs and all the Virginias, etc., the US Navy will remain the bulwark for ensuring freedom of the seas for the next 50 years just like they have for the last 50 years.

Watch and see if it is not si.

In 50 years, realistically we should expect the Chinese Navy to be larger than the US Navy.

That comes from China:
1. already having a significantly larger economy than the USA today in terms of actual physical output, yet China is still in a fast catchup growth phase of 6.5%. That would mean the Chinese economy will double in size in just 11years.
2. already being the world's largest trading nation with a global interest in commercial freedom of navigation.
3. having unresolved sovereignty issues in the waters of Western Pacific, just off the Chinese mainland.
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
In 50 years, realistically we should expect the Chinese Navy to be larger than the US Navy.

That comes from China:
1. already having a significantly larger economy than the USA today in terms of actual physical output, yet China is still in a fast catchup growth phase of 6.5%. That would mean the Chinese economy will double in size in just 11years.
2. already being the world's largest trading nation with a global interest in commercial freedom of navigation.
3. having unresolved sovereignty issues in the waters of Western Pacific, just off the Chinese mainland.
Seriously OT ! in more in 50 years it is impossible to envisage futur Fleets coz even USN give shipbuilding plans for 30 years max. and one President is elected for 4 years... so they changes and for China to know :rolleyes: and economy can variy it is no sense to envisage it but quite sure up to 2050 about USN remains the 1st again more with last news...

After may be that the Martians will have arrived :D
 
Last edited:

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Seriously OT ! in more in 50 years it is impossible to envisage futur Fleets coz even USN give shipbuilding plans for 30 years max. and one President is elected for 4 years... so they changes and for China to know :rolleyes: and economy can variy it is no sense to envisage it but quite sure up to 2050 about USN remains the 1st again more with last news...

After may be that the Martians will have arrived :D

Perhaps you should also tell off Jeff, as I was responding to the comment that the US Navy will definitely still be the world's biggest in 50 year's time. That statement is factually and analytical incorrect.

I'm not trying to guess what the shipbuilding plan will look like.

I'm merely remarking that China has both the productive capacity and the strategic requirement for the world's largest navy.

China's economy is already significant larger than the USA in terms of actual output. That is already fact.

And on balance, China is likely to continue growing much faster because China is still at a much lower development level.

---

I would recommend reading "Destined for war? China, America and the Thucydides trap" which just came out. Apparently McMaster has made it required reading for all the members of the National Security Council.

It actually posits a date of 2040 for when China's economy could be 3x larger than the USA, so let's say China only becomes 2x larger. In such a world, what are the chances of China having a much larger navy than the USA?
 
I now googled:
"Destined for war? China, America and the Thucydides trap"
the hit on top is what at first glance looks like kinda excerpt Destined for war? China, America and the Thucydides trap
March 31, 2017
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As Trump and Xi prepare to meet, Gideon Rachman looks at the tests ahead for the world’s most important bilateral relationship

As Xi Jinping prepares to meet Donald Trump in Florida next week, his staff might do well to get hold of an advance copy of an important new book by Graham Allison on US-Chinese relations — which bears the doom-laden title Destined for War. The Chinese president is already familiar with the work of Allison, a professor of government at Harvard. In November 2013, I attended a meeting with President Xi in the Great Hall of the People in Beijing, where he told a group of western visitors: “We must all work together to avoid Thucydides’ trap.” The phrase, a reference to the ancient Greek historian’s observations about the war between Sparta and Athens in the fifth century BC, was coined by Allison to describe the dangers of a period in which an established great power is challenged by a rising power. Allison, the author of a classic study of the Cuban missile crisis, calculates that in 12 out of 16 such cases, the rivalry has ended in open conflict. This time, he argues, may be no different: “China and the United States are currently on a collision course for war — unless both parties take difficult and painful actions to avert it.” A project that Allison and his colleagues ran at Harvard examined multiple cases “in which a major nation’s rise has disrupted the position of a dominant state”, concluding that “the resulting structural stress makes a violent clash the rule not the exception”. In his new book, only two of these historical examples are examined in substantial detail — the original clash between Athens and Sparta, and Anglo-German rivalry before the first world war (the latter a parallel that has also preoccupied Henry Kissinger). Of the other 10 examples that Allison examines more briefly, some are intriguing as guides to the future, while others seem less convincing. The closest analogy to the current situation may be Japan’s challenge to American and British dominance in the Pacific in the first half of the 20th century — a rivalry that did culminate in war. The role played by naval power in that contest, as well as the way in which economic rivalry slid into military conflict, are both uncomfortably reminiscent of the rise in US-Chinese tensions today.

But some of the other parallels raised by Allison seem to fit the Thucydides’s trap model less closely. It is not obvious that the cold war is best understood as a rivalry between a rising and established power. Rather, the US and the USSR both emerged as victors from the second world war, and established rival ideological systems and zones of influence in a bipolar system. The cold war is also one of only two rivalries examined by Allison that took place after the invention of nuclear weapons. The fact that neither of the nuclear age power-shifts (the other is listed as the rise of a unified Germany) ended in war raises the obvious question of whether these weapons have ended Thucydides’s trap, by making it unthinkably dangerous for a rising nation to go to war with an established power. This is a question considered by Allison but one, inevitably, to which he cannot provide a conclusive answer. Most scholars and soldiers who have looked closely at how a US-China war might actually break out have tended to argue that, in a nuclear age, neither side is likely to go to war deliberately. But a limited clash, perhaps in the South China Sea, could easily escalate into something more serious. In a brief preface written after the election of Donald Trump, Allison argues: “If Hollywood were to make a movie pitting China against the United States, central casting could not find two better leading actors than Xi Jinping and Donald Trump. Each personifies his country’s deep aspirations of national greatness.” More dangerously, both men “identify the nation ruled by the other as the principal obstacle to their dream”. A big difference, however, may be that Xi’s vision of the “great rejuvenation of the Chinese nation” seems much more fully formed than that of the new US president. As the journalist and academic Howard French tells it in Everything Under the Heavens, China’s leader is essentially seeking to return his country to the position it has traditionally exercised in Asia — as the dominant regional power, to which other countries must defer or pay tribute. “For the better part of two millennia, the norm for China, from its own perspective, was a natural dominion over everything under heaven,” writes French. In practice, this meant “a vast and familiar swath of geography that consisted of nearby Central Asia, Southeast Asia and East Asia”.

This traditional Chinese aspiration had to be shelved for almost two centuries. From the mid-19th century, China was humbled by powerful outsiders — first European imperialists and then Japanese invaders. After the Communist victory in 1949, the country went through a period of economic and cultural isolation and relative poverty. By the late 1970s, when China reversed course and embraced capitalism and foreign investment, it had fallen far behind the “tiger economies” of east Asia. In its catch-up phase, China pursued friendly relations with its capitalist neighbours — including Japan, its old wartime foe. These Asian neighbours were important sources of expertise and foreign investment for a country that was desperate to make up for lost time. But French, like many observers, sees a change of mood and tone in China’s relationship with the outside world since Xi came to power in 2012. The primary target of Chinese muscle-flexing and ambition is not, in fact, the US — but Japan. “As China’s self-regard has swollen, along with its newfound power, Japan has returned to the center of the Chinese gaze in the form of a bull’s-eye,” writes French. Much Chinese resentment of Japan is focused on the Japanese invasion and occupation of the 1930s. But, as French makes clear, the roots of the resentment stretch deep into the 19th century. In one of the most compelling sections of this fluent and interesting book, French shows the importance of Japan’s annexation of the Ryukyu Islands in 1879. These islands retain their significance today, as they include Okinawa — the site of the largest US military base in east Asia. The current focus of territorial disputes between Japan and China is the much smaller set of islands known as the Senkakus to the Japanese and the Diaoyu to the Chinese. But reading French’s book, one cannot but wonder whether Chinese ambitions will also eventually encompass Okinawa. America’s close alliance with Japan means that it is inevitably deeply implicated in the rising tensions between China and Japan. Some Chinese nationalists may hope that the US will eventually pull back from the western Pacific and allow China an unblocked path to restoring its traditional sphere of influence. However, they are likely to be disappointed. As Michael Green observes in By More Than Providence, “If there is one central theme in American strategic culture as it has applied to the Far East over time, it is that the United States will not tolerate any other power establishing exclusive hegemonic control over Asia and the Pacific.” The message could not be clearer for Xi’s China.
goes on below due to size limit
 
continuation of the above post:
Green, who is now a fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, says that the idea of writing a history of American “grand strategy” in the Asia-Pacific region, from the foundation of the republic to the present day, came to him when he was working as director for Asian affairs in George W Bush’s White House — and realised that no recent study existed. Back in the academic world, Green set about filling this gap in the literature and he has succeeded triumphantly. His book is likely to become the standard work on the subject. With more than 130 pages of footnotes, By More Than Providence is a weighty tome. But the story of America’s entanglement with Asia is dramatic — encompassing colonisation of the Philippines, Pearl Harbor, the Korean and Vietnam wars and Nixon’s “opening to China”. As well as providing a clear narrative, Green identifies some recurring dilemmas in US grand strategy over the centuries. These include whether to see China or Japan as the more important partner; and whether to emphasise the protection of American markets or the opening of Asian markets. One of Trump’s first acts as president was to tilt decisively in the direction of protectionism, by withdrawing America from the Trans-Pacific Partnership, a giant new trade pact that had been pushed by both the Bush and the Obama administrations. Green completed his book before Trump’s victory. But his work strongly suggests that the US may come to regret this move towards protectionism. “When new US administrations have failed to make the expansion of trade a central pillar of their strategic approach to Asia,” he writes, “they have invariably lost ground.”

Some see Trump’s protectionism as part of a broader lurch towards isolationism. But Green’s history suggests that America is highly unlikely to pull back from the western Pacific. One of the recurring US dilemmas that he identifies is where to define America’s “forward defensive line”. Green notes that, in response to successive security dilemmas, America has tended to extend the area that it regards as essential to its own security, so that this now stretches all the way to the Korean peninsula and the South China Sea. “Over the course of this history,” he writes, “Americans have learned that the Pacific Ocean does not provide sanctuary against threats emanating from the Eurasian heartland if the United States is not holding the line at the Western Pacific.” Indeed, if anything, America’s focus on Asia is becoming more intense as China rises. Barack Obama was the first US president to declare that Asia — not Europe or the Americas — is now the highest priority for US foreign policy. Obama’s statement reflected the growing awareness in the US of the significance of the rise of China — and the implications of that rise for the west’s traditional domination of the world order. The books by Green, Allison and French are just three of the most important examples among a torrent of new titles that deal with the ambitions of a rising China, and the growing tensions between Beijing and Washington. Tom Miller’s China’s Asian Dream is a lively work that, like French’s book, argues that Xi is now intent on restoring his nation to “what he regards as its natural, rightful and historical position as the greatest power in Asia”. Miller, an analyst and journalist, is particularly strong on the role that Chinese-backed infrastructure development will play in fulfilling this ambition, as it “creates a modern tribute system, with all roads literally leading to Beijing”. By contrast, Bernard Cole’s China’s Quest for Great Power focuses on another aspect of Beijing’s development as a global player — in this case its rapid development of naval power, partly as a means to ensure that China retains access to the foreign energy supplies that are needed to fuel its economy. Both themes have echoes of some of the conflicts examined by Allison. The growth of Anglo-German naval rivalry was a major feature of the tensions that preceded the outbreak of the first world war. Similarly, it was Japan’s fear of an energy blockade that helped to produce the rivalries that led to the Japanese imperial navy’s assault on Pearl Harbor. There is, however, an important counterargument to consider. Some scholars believe that the ambitions of modern China — outlined in different ways by French, Cole and Miller — may ultimately be thwarted because of intrinsic weaknesses within the Chinese economic and political system. One noted sceptic about China’s ability to make the transition to great-power status is the political scientist David Shambaugh, who argued in a 2014 book that China is likely to remain a “partial power”. Similar scepticism is expressed by Michael Auslin, a history professor and think-tanker, whose The End of the Asian Century (reviewed more fully in the FT on February 27) is a useful corrective to unreflective optimism about the future of Asia generally and China in particular. Auslin’s book starts with the author in one of the tunnels that North Korea has dug underneath its southern neighbour. It is an appropriate place from which to contemplate the risks that war might yet destroy the prosperity and stability of much of modern Asia. The differing views of China and the US on how to deal with the North Korean nuclear threat are likely to form much of the subject matter of the summit next week at Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida. The US — which has a large military presence in South Korea and which has threatened pre-emptive strikes against the North Korean nuclear programme — would inevitably be involved in any war that broke out on the peninsula. It is likely that China, as a formal treaty ally of North Korea, would also be dragged in. All of the books under review here were effectively completed before Trump settled into the Oval office. Since then, the new president has sent out mixed messages about the direction of US policy in Asia. At times, the Trump administration has signalled a much more confrontational approach to China — for example over Taiwan or the South China Sea. At other times, Trump and his cabinet members have taken a more conciliatory line. The meeting with Xi may give a crucial indication as to whether the US and China are indeed sliding towards a much more antagonistic and dangerous relationship.
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LOL
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May 30, 2017
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FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
I now googled:

the hit on top is what at first glance looks like kinda excerpt Destined for war? China, America and the Thucydides trap
March 31, 2017
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goes on below due to size limit
OT the guy is OT thinking you more intelligent for don't post all the book !
 
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