Lessons learned by the US military in Iraq applied to the PLA

szbd

Junior Member
When you are In battle nothing really guaranteed victory... surprises may happen but not expect them to be the standard... In the en U.S. Forces still won even lossing an entire divission (not taking credit out of china... I dind see no country in the world destroying an entire U.S. Army division only china, they have guts Ill give you that but they still lose in the end) as for globalsecurity.org it's a civil website... You are right but it's respected and cosidered thrusted... If you are not agree with that please enlithen us with a website than back up your point

:eek:ff Sorry, but I think China won (at least draw) in korea but didn't destroy an entire US Army division.

1st round, NK>SK
2nd round, US>NK
3rd round, China>US
4th round, China+NK=US+SK:eek:ff

As for what PLA should learn in Iraq, I think they already understand the most important thing long time before that. Like in 1962 and 1979, defeat your enemy, then pull out.

In the tactical level, I don't think there're many to learn. It's a common insergent thing that China had thousands of times in her history.
 

bigstick61

Junior Member
As for what PLA should learn in Iraq, I think they already understand the most important thing long time before that. Like in 1962 and 1979, defeat your enemy, then pull out.

That's certainly not a lesson which should be drawn. While there are times when simply pulling out is a viable option, and when it is, that is the course which should be normally taken, more often than not, there is generally a need to occupy the conquered nation, and when it is necessary, it is so because it fulfills various vital interests and because it prevents the gains of the war from becoming undone right after it is over; Iraq is one of those cases.

Ok, so brutal all the insurgency in Korea was against UN, none against PLA (obviously too scared). Ask Koreans to count some USA atrocities, then ask them to count PLA ones.

So brutal all the Vietcong came back to life to fight off PLA in 1979...oops never happened, they only cared about fighting USA I guess.

So brutal every day in Tibet, Xinjiang bombs fall, soldiers rape, babies die. Oops wrong part of the world here.

I notice that you refer to the Viet Cong. Their existence was predicated upon their goal to "liberate" South Vietnam from the ROV government in the name of the communists up north. By 1968, most of the VC were eliminated, having gone out in a major offensive and suffering massive casualties, entirely disproportionate to the damage they caused. Since their goal was pretty much fulfilled by 1979 and there weren't many left, I could see why they wouldn't fight China.

It is also noteworthy that the conventional approach preferred by Westmoreland was the source of American failure in Vietnam, not the sporadic atrocities (which are far outnumbered by those perpetrated by the communists) or the style of warfare (prior to Vietnam, the USMC had proven that such wars could be consistently won using a certain approach, even against large guerilla forces with broad public support in rough terrain, and which are well-equipped). The proper way small wars should be fought is very much the opposite of a conventional approach, and completely the opposite of the total war approach. In Vietnam, on a small scale artificially imposed by Westmoreland, Krulak's CAP program was able to successfully pacify areas with minimal engagement, driving the VC out and turning the villagers against the VC, by using the proven approach called for in the Small Wars Manual. The successes were ignored by Westmoreland, whose conventional strategy wore down American forces, and by that, the American people, which ultimately cuased a political defeat, which is why you should never use that approach unless the insurgents come out in force, like Aguinaldo in the early stages of the Philippine Insurrection.

This all goes back to the lessons that the PLA, or any country which may face such a situation, should draw from such conflicts. When studied in sum, it can be seen that such wars can be, and most often are, won, and that there are approaches which lead to such a result. Conventional approaches have been proven not to work under such circumstances, and that is really, what is to be learned. The same mistakes in Vietnam were made in Iraq, but fortunately, the US has corrected itself, which took much longer to do in Vietnam. When it is over, provided the politicians do not bring about defeat, the lesson which should be drawn by the PLA and others will become self-evident.
 
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alwaysfresh

New Member
I find it amusing that someone would defend the despotism, statism, and totalitarianism of the communists in China; actually, I take that back, I find that rather sad and disappointing, perhaps upsetting. One thing which in general I cannot abide is tyranny, and I make no effort to disguise that sentiment. I'm just calling it as I see it, and I really don't think you could say that the CCP is anything but tyrannical, and still remain correct.

Anyways, back to the subject at hand, I notice that you refer to the Viet Cong. Their existence was predicated upon their goal to "liberate" South Vietnam from the ROV government in the name of the communists up north. By 1968, most of the VC were eliminated, having gone out in a major offensive and suffering massive casualties, entirely disproportionate to the damage they caused. Since their goal was pretty much fulfilled by 1979 and there weren't many left, I could see why they wouldn't fight China.

It is also noteworthy that the conventional approach preferred by Westmoreland was the source of American failure in Vietnam, not the sporadic atrocities (which are far outnumbered by those perpetrated by the communists) or the style of warfare (prior to Vietnam, the USMC had proven that such wars could be consistently won using a certain approach, even against large guerilla forces with broad public support in rough terrain, and which are well-equipped). The proper way small wars should be fought is very much the opposite of a conventional approach, and completely the opposite of the total war approach. In Vietnam, on a small scale artificially imposed by Westmoreland, Krulak's CAP program was able to successfully pacify areas with minimal engagement, driving the VC out and turning the villagers against the VC, by using the proven approach called for in the Small Wars Manual. The successes were ignored by Westmoreland, whose conventional strategy wore down American forces, and by that, the American people, which ultimately cuased a political defeat, which is why you should never use that approach unless the insurgents come out in force, like Aguinaldo in the early stages of the Philippine Insurrection.

This all goes back to the lessons that the PLA, or any country which may face such a situation, should draw from such conflicts. When studied in sum, it can be seen that such wars can be, and most often are, won, and that there are approaches which lead to such a result. Conventional approaches have been proven not to work under such circumstances, and that is really, what is to be learned. The same mistakes in Vietnam were made in Iraq, but fortunately, the US has corrected itself, which took much longer to do in Vietnam. When it is over, provided the politicians do not bring about defeat, the lesson which should be drawn by the PLA and others will become self-evident.

What is the thesis of your essay? Just wondering... are you a story writer or journalist? Proof and sources, please... Making points without proof is a waste of time, I understand emotions points, but a reason would be nice.
 

Ryz05

Junior Member
Sunzi said, "in war prepare for peace, in peace prepare for war." Well, the US prepared excellently for fighting the war, but failed to prepare enough for what to do after they've won. I guess that's a lesson.
 
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goldenpanda

Banned Idiot
Krulak's CAP program was able to successfully pacify areas with minimal engagement, driving the VC out and turning the villagers against the VC, by using the proven approach called for in the Small Wars Manual.

wait there's something here...

what is it...

Oh YES. You will *never* win hearts because you pick up a manual with your "proven approach". Vietnamese don't want to be your "proven success". Your manipulation will show through in every word you say, every gesture you make, every look in your eye. Their sons and daughters are dying, and they're not there to up your score. That's why they will follow Ho Chi Minh instead, who had it in his heart to be their friend.

Same deal in Iraq. They know after the candy truck passes, they're still just "hajis" to you. They would rather die than have you in their country. And they show it to you everyday.
 

bigstick61

Junior Member
What is the thesis of your essay? Just wondering... are you a story writer or journalist? Proof and sources, please... Making points without proof is a waste of time, I understand emotions points, but a reason would be nice.

Which part are you contesting? I also don't see how the majority of my post is emotional, certainly not the parts directly relating to the topic. Also, my reasons for being against tyranny stem not just from emotion, but from logic as well. I am in the process of writing a book on political philosophy, but it's not my profession.

wait there's something here...

what is it...

Oh YES. You will *never* win hearts because you pick up a manual with your "proven approach". Vietnamese don't want to be your "proven success". Your manipulation will show through in every word you say, every gesture you make, every look in your eye. Their sons and daughters are dying, and they're not there to up your score. That's why they will follow Ho Chi Minh instead, who had it in his heart to be their friend.

Same deal in Iraq. They know after the candy truck passes, they're still just "hajis" to you. They would rather die than have you in their country. And they show it to you everyday.

It's not so much getting them to love us that is the goal inasmuch as it is to get them to consider the occupying force, the government, or forces supporting then government, to be the best option. The goal is to get them to believe that they will be etter off siding with that side, and not with the insurgents. You don't have to get them to love or adore you to meet that goal, and in most cases, such a goal is unrealistic.

In the case of Vietnam and the CAP program, the approach, which is always adapted to the circumstances, entailed several things. First off, there would be a starting point in a major population center. The VC would be cleared out, and a USMC squad or platoon would occupy a village to secure it, and they would be assigned to a Popular Forces unit from the village of a larger size. In this relationship, the Marines would teach the PFs small-unit tactics, would train them, advise them, guide them in combat, etc., while the PFs would teach the Marines about the terrain, how to operate in it, and about the people and the culture.

The Marines would live amongst the villagers, and would live no better or worse than the villagers, and daily interaction was a neccessity. Their relationship to the mass of the populace was to be one which was kind and benevolent, the exception being those who helped the VC, who would be dealt with in a more harsh manner. The Marines would also aid in or directly participate in efforts to build community buildings, such as a school, or provide a service, such as distributing medicine, running a waste and sewage management system, aiding the civil government, and such. Rewards would be given to those who gave accurate intelligence on the VC.

The most important part of all of this is the security aspect. The Marines would defend the village against attack or coercion by the VC (who often resorted to brutal methods to ensure loyalty and get "taxes"). They would, in conjunction with the PFs, do their best to police and secure the village, and root out VC or sympathizers from it. Small unit patrols would patrol the area around the village looking for trouble, and doing things like deliberately walking into ambushes, counter-ambushing, conducting ambushes, searching for intel or VC forces, or just seeing what they could find.

The result of this was that the villagers would feel that they were much better off with the Marines and the PFs, and the VC would lose major ground in the battle for the hearts and minds. The villagers would root out sympathizers themselves, provide intel, and aid in the overall security of the village. More often than not, the VC, out of desperation, and sometimes with NVA support, would assault the post where the troops were stationed in mass assaults, and they were always defeated, such defeat signalling the end of their influence. Once the village was secure, other Marines would move to the outlying villages and pacify them using the same methods, and such a pacification attempt would spread out. Another effect was on the Marines. Living with the people, especially after earning their trust (and it was earned), have them a stake in the conflict, and many would volunteer to stay beyond their one-year tour to ensure the job was done.

The strategies used were principally the attraction and chastisement strategy, first used by the United States to pacify the Philippines (and used by others prior to that), and the inkblot strategy, first used by French general Joseph Gallieni to pacify Tonkin, Senegal, and Madagascar. At the tactical level, there was the interaction and the civil and political efforts with the populace, policing and security techniques, and the use of agrressive small-unit tactics. After the trial of the program, Westmoreland, who inssited on continuing his fruitless earch and destroy missions and conventional operations, refused to expand the program, saying there were not enough personnel, despite that the most liberal estimate to pacify the country would have required less troops than we currently have in Iraq, far below the 500,000 troops that were in-country.

A notable village was that of Binh Nghia, which was a VC strongold. After being pacified, it became so safe and secure, and devoid of the VC (who were non-existent), tha it became a recommended R&R center. There is a good book on the pacification efforts as part of the CAP program in Binh Nghia which I would recommend, titled "The Village", by Captain Francis J. West, Jr., USMC (ret.), who was a participant. Another book which covers the broader subject including this aspect, is Max Boot's "The Savage Wars of Peace: Small Wars and the Rise of American Power."

As much as it may seem callous to you, and you would think that maybe a methodic approach would turn people off, the approach does work and in vaious forms has been used to win most of the cunterinsurgencies the U.S. has waged, the lessons from these and those learned from the British colonial experience being incorporated into a manual, the Small Wars Manual, which laid out how to fight and win counterinsurgencies, along with other military missions and conflicts short of an actual conventional war. Using human nature, which is fixed, as a starting point, you can come up with a logical strategy and with tactics arising from such strategies, which is a plan, a method, to do this work. When it comes to fighting, while you must be able to adapt, it is best to have a working plan, a strategy. In the case of Iraq, proper pacification efforts, except in a couple of villages, were never undertaken until recently, when General Petraeus took command. He's a student of this style of warfare and wrote the Army's first counterinsurgency manual (the Small Wars Manual preceded it by nearly 7 decades, and was recently updated as a 4th edition), and is rapidly implementing this strategy. It's ultimate effects remain to be seen, but the chances of success, if history is a guide, are high, provided that the Democrats do not push for defeat and win. If this is the case, the PLA, for their own sake if they wish to undergo a pacification operation, should take note and draw the proper lessons from the conflict, rather than improper ones, as was done by the US after Vietnam, culminating in the flawed Powell Doctrine.
 

goldenpanda

Banned Idiot
The PLA did fine in Tibet, without having to napalm anybody. Tibet is still there.

If I remember correctly, Iraqis first started to wonder about their "liberators" when they didn't stop looters. I guess stopping looters wasn't in the Small War Manual. Iraqis didn't need a manual to figure out these soldiers weren't there because they cared about Iraq. In fact, British with all their colonial experience couldn't keep Basra more peaceful than did Saddam Hussein.

Pacification won't work because people are not donkeys. They don't want you to train them to accept what's good for them. They want an ideal which is meaningful to their culture, whether it's peasant liberation, or Arab glory. You want to train people like you train dogs--that will never be a "proper lesson" for the PLA.


If China had more ball they'd send PLA to Iraq, in exchange for USA shutting down Kadena. PLA will bring back the Hussein army and the Baath party, stop all violence, gradually introduce elections, expand state guidance in the economy, keep Iraq WMD free, pull out in 36 months sharp.
 
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Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Everyone quits the offtopic ranting and political penis.contest right now!!

...Or there will be one angry mod pouring that napalm over
you

Gollevainen
Spanish inqvisition
 

bigstick61

Junior Member
If I remember correctly, Iraqis first started to wonder about their "liberators" when they didn't stop looters. I guess stopping looters wasn't in the Small War Manual. Iraqis didn't need a manual to figure out these soldiers weren't there because they cared about Iraq. In fact, British with all their colonial experience couldn't keep Basra more peaceful than did Saddam Hussein.

Pacification won't work because people are not donkeys. They don't want you to train them to accept what's good for them. They want an ideal which is meaningful to their culture, whether it's peasant liberation, or Arab glory. You want to train people like you train dogs--that will never be a "proper lesson" for the PLA.

This was one of the issues (that mentioned in your first paragraph) which really caused the insurgency. It arose out of the fact that the force used in Iraq was about 1/4 that used in the 1st Gulf War, and of the recommended size. This was part of Rumsfeld's experiment for his new warfighting concepts, which called for leaner, lighter,and more mobile forces. The Iraqi Army was also disbanded. The result of this was that there were not enough forces to secure the country immediately after the cessation of major combat operations. The looting, unemployed soldiers, and the general lawlessness which occurred immediately after the invasion was the catalyst for the insurgency as we know it. It would not have grown as big as it has if that had not happened. The lesson which anyone, to include the PLA, should draw from this is that if you invade, invade with all of the forces necessary for all phases of the conflict. The war proved that a lean, mobile force with better training and technology, and better doctrine, could defeat a larger force of a third-world country, but it also proved that the Rumsfeld Doctrine cannot work in the real world, when you consider all the aspects of major conventional conflict. That is something the PLA should look at and take note of, especially if they ever plan to conduct any sort of offensive operations.

As for the second paragraph, people are not drones, donkeys, or any such thing. Small war doctrine does not involve training anyone to think a certain way. The only people getting training are the indigenous forces. It is noteworthy, however, that there is an objective and absolute human nature, and this can serve as a guide, a starting point, for pacification operations which deal alot with human behavior and interaction. As much as you may criticize the doctrine, when applied, it does work, and this is proof enough of its adequacy to the task. The United States defeated guerillas in the Philippines, Haiti, the Dominican Republic, Nicaragua (to include defeating the Sandinistas), Mexico, and other places, and has aided other countries in defeating such forces. If the PLA find themselves engaging in counterinsurgency operations, they would do well for themselves to take note of what has worked and what doesn't, and if Iraq, using Petraeus' strategy is a success, it would serve as an excellent case study of both what to do and what not do to, as the original strategy was the path to failure and makes current operations more difficult. If the PLA wishes to engage in such operations in a meaningful way, they would do well to establish a proper counterinsurgency doctrine.
 
I think we should add do not get involved in a land war in the Middle East to the list along with do not get involved in a land war in Asia...
 
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