Ladakh Flash Point

Status
Not open for further replies.

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
They don't need to; the Storm Shadows provide sufficient range so as to permit IAF Rafales to operate within Indian airspace while retaining deep-strike capabilities.

Is this Storm Shadow some kind of Wunder Waffen created by alien? Come on chinese surface radar perched high above Himalaya and the have cover all over the LAC and peer deep inside Indian territory. They got all the Indian border cover Any missile flying across the border will be detected and shot! And remember the I in IAD mean integrated it cover high and low trajectory missile . Beside those AWAC will keep 24X7 watch over the border.

You should know better of all people You have been around SDF for a long time and read about all the Chinese radar

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

China’s string of radars in Ladakh track every move of Indian Army
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
25 August, 2017 7:58 am IST
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


radar-dish-pixabay-696x464.jpg
Representational image. Source: Pixabay
Text Size: A- A+
China now has a number of radars along the border to watch movements in Indian territory. It is a reason for concern for India.
Colonel Vinayak Bhat (retd)

China’s rapid and strategic deployment of radars in recent years should be a matter of serious and urgent concern for India. A large number of radars provide the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) with very good surveillance capabilities. Traditionally, they were deployed along the huge coastline of China, but are now popping up on the Indo-Tibet border, giving Beijing eyes deep into India.
These radars cover a large part of Ladakh, including the Pangong lake where a recent border scuffle took place, and even the militarised Siachen glacier.
The mission of these radars will be to monitor Indian surface and aerial activities. Here is an expose on these radar locations in occupied-Ladakh, called Aksai Chin, and their strategic importance.
China-radars-1.jpg

Radar Site 1 : Depsang Area

(cont)
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Some more as I said they built unmanned radar at the one of the highest peak in Himalaya


China to deploy 3 more unmanned radars in Tibet along India border
SECTIONS
China to deploy 3 more unmanned radars ..

Read more at:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


BEIJING: In a move that will have strategic ramifications for India, China will soon deploy three more unmanned radars in Tibet in addition to the one already installed there to strengthen air surveillance in the Himalayan region along the Indian border.

China's first unmanned radar station has stood for eight years on top of Ganbala Mountain. This year another three unmanned radars are going to be installed in order to form a radar network with the previous ones, state-run People's D ..
 

MrCrazyBoyRavi

Junior Member
Registered Member
What are the chances of Indian plane violating the chinese airspace and getting shotdown? I think there is great possibility of Indian testing Chinese resolve and fly inside Chinese border for PR victory or Indian pilot mistakenly entering Chinese airspace. Although recent Indo-Pak conflict might not be related to this discussion but if India is ok with engaging a nuclear power rival then it might be ok with limited lilited military adventurism with China too. Especially when US/China are busy with their cold war and US election coming this november.
 

Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Is this not a time of tension? And insofar as the surge goes, there has been increased deployment of J-11s and a few JH-7 and H-6H (apparently not H-6K as previously thought). Granted, there are some strike elements in the mix, but within the overall deployment picture, it has mostly been air-to-air assets that were mobilized. Whether the PLAAF will play a supportive or an organic interdiction role remains to be seen (and hopefully never seen).



Our discussion isn't an IAF vs PLAAF comparison but rather that of the deployed assets relevant to this conflict, so it's not worth bringing up the 100+ H-6Ks in the PLAAF inventory or even its other strike platforms. I don't think we need a discussion to understand that the IAF, as a whole, does not match the PLAAF in either technology or quantity. AFAIK the PLAAF forward-deployed H-6H and JH-7 aircraft are each in single-digit quantities. The 200-km-range KD-88s do not have TERCOM or DSMAC capabilities that allow it remain low during cruise so as to avoid IAF radar. Neither do the KD-63/B ALCMs that the H-6Hs carry.

And I was mistaken in believing that the H-6 variant deployed at Kashgar was the CJ-10-capable "K" version; they were in fact the much older "H" iteration that is only compatible with the 200-km-range KD-63B.

So in this respect the Rafales and their complementary Storm Shadows do give the IAF a strike advantage against the PLAAF hardware in the region. And while the PLAAF is certainly capable of reaching targets within India, that alone doesn't preclude the IAF from hitting critical PLAAF/PLAGF infrastructure deep within China. This alone might sway the perspective which PLA brass holds of India's forces.



Again, this isn't a discussion about the IAF vs PLAAF as a whole. I agree that 5 Rafales (even 36 for that matter) do not put a dent in the technology and numerical advantage that the PLAAF enjoys over its Indian counterpart, but within the realm of the Ladakh standoff things are less lopsided. A good analogy would be the Argentinian air force vs the RAF during the Falklands war.

One could argue that the PLAAF could merely deploy more forces in the region should the need arise, but so far we haven't seen a significant shift of their higher-end units to southern airbases (correct me if I'm wrong). No massive buildup of J-16/J-10B/C/H-6K have occurred in regions close to Hotan AB or Kashgar AB. Additionally, if conflict does break out at a moment's notice, PLAAF aircraft deployed elsewhere might not make it in time to have as major of an influence as they would've had they been deployed to Hotan/Kashgar in the first place.



I think you make a valid point regarding any counterattacks the PLAAF might mount (reminds me of IAF's response to PAF during the 65 war), but that prospect has to be weighed against the amount of interest each nation has in sustaining such a conflict as well as the acceptable damage that each military is willing to bear.

An IAF surprise strike, or even a "riposte" in response to a PLA/AF operation, could put a major dent in the PLA's ability to conduct operations as effectively as some SDF/PDF members believe they could.


So, none of this really adds anything more to what I wrote, which I had specifically bookended with these two parts:

"In so far as being "invulnerable" to a surprise air attack is concerned, there are few nations that border each other which are "immune". A limited scope, high intensity cross border strike with limited objectives is not difficult to do and the nature of contemporary offensive weapons and the relative permeability of modern IADS + CAP + AEW&C means it is quite feasible to conduct one or even multiple probing attacks that manages to catch a tactically unprepared enemy off guard."

"So if your argument is that the IAF has the potential to carry out some sort of surprise first strike, I'm not in disagreement with that, in so much as that carrying out cross border surprise first strikes is not exactly difficult in this day and age.

But in so far as the force on force balance of A2A, A2G, and airborne force multipliers go -- unless your hypothetical first strike is able to render the bulk of the WTC's air fields inoperable for a significant period of time (and frankly they'd probably have to hit CTC as well) -- the resultant PLA combat air surge in terms of the quality of capabilities they bring to the table but also the quantity of capabilities they can field, would be capable of a significant riposte outstripping the scope of what the IAF's own rather limited strike capabilities are able to offer.
"


You're basically asking if a surprise aerial offensive might be able to cause damage to the PLA's posture in the WTC, in which case the answer is obviously yes, but that's bordering on a strawman argument considering how viable it is to conduct surprise aerial offensives in this day and age.
The ability to thwart and counterattack these sort of surprise offensives becomes one of strategic/political assessments of the opfor's intentions and threat that it poses at any given time informed by strategic and political intelligence, which in turn determines your own readiness level and deployment patterns.



WRT a few of the other points you've brought up, which don't really alter the arguments I raised before;
- Yes, we've seen temporary deployments of combined aerial forces to the region in the recent past. Not a permanent fixture, which goes to show what the strategic perception of the risk of conflict and threat index is. In June they deployed forces of J-16s, J-11Bs, with AEW&C and standoff jamming support when things were slightly more dicey.
- H-6Ks have the combat radius and the weapons range to operate from other theater commands and still hit targets hundreds of km inside Indian borders. Obviously they would be relevant in any such contingency even without being directly based in the relevant TC.
- The only reason I described the totality of the PLA's H-6K fleet in this context is because you seem to be bringing the entire IAF's modern strike capable fleet into this discussion.

If you don't want to bring in air force versus air force comparisons (or in the PLA's case, even in event of a true contingency only a fraction of their overall fleet would be relevant in this event), that's fine, but the PLA doesn't normally deploy a significant air force in being in the WTC normally out of deliberate choice, so your assessments of each side's strategic options and calculus should be done so in that context.


So going back to your previous post that I replied to, where you claimed that you doubt the PLAAF might be able to steamroll the IAF if the standoff turned hot, well... your only argument for it is basically a surprise attack, but you seem unsure if it would be small in scale or large in scale.
If it's smaller in scale, then the scale and speed of rapid PLA riposte would be something to behold even with a relatively small fraction of its total force.
If it's larger in scale, then you'd have to hope that Chinese strategic and political intelligence didn't catch wind of it first (and you'd even have to have the political and military stomach for it in the first place), and even assuming everything in the operation went right, you are now facing a PRC that is going to organize a heck of a counter attack in that direction that is willing to shift much more of its assets from other TCs into the west than in the small scale scenario. And great, if you're India, you've now started a large scale war where China will seek its pound of flesh.

In both scenarios, the units that the PLA would be allocating its counter attack with would be derived from elements of its out-of-region air force, because that's the way their strategic deployment in the region is organized.

And in both scenarios, but especially in the large scale scenario, the political stomach to fire the first shot and attempt a surprise offensive is hardly something that one can just handwave like it's a persistent possibility to always be on the lookout for. You have intelligence services for a reason.
 
Last edited:

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
A war would be easy for PLA. It'll be the easiest war the PLA has fought in its entire history. Consider the following facts:

1. India didn't know about the actions of their own IA commanders in June
2. India could not evacuate or provide support to the outcome of actions
3. India has failed to start this war for 5 months now despite PLA unilaterally seizing land that China claims which include a huge chunk that India claims.
4. Modi denied there was any unilateral Chinese movement to hide this fact for as long as possible and to avoid being pressured into a war he knows he is sure to lose.
5. India has not placed any heavy equipment towards the border outside of a handful of token tanks airlifted and a few pieces of artillery. All of this is enough for a surprise first strike and support but they understand anything placed there is literally cannon fodder because PLA response is something they could not defend themselves against. Why else fail to put anything on the border?

Fact 3 proves India will not fight BECAUSE they cannot fight. Why is this difficult to understand for Sinosoldier? This isn't the thread being confident in PLA abilities. We're being confident because this is the most pathetic and weak adversary the PLA has ever faced against in its entire existence.

Again let me emphasis the consequences. PLA has taken roughly 1000 square kilometers of land from India's claims and the PLA has moved only up to China's own claims and not further. Therefore the situation hasn't changed for the Indians for about 5 months! If they were confident in their own abilities, they wouldn't have stalled for so long. It's now beyond stalling. It is surrendering with posture. They have given up on militarily engaging China so their war is one of internal propaganda now. Prove any of the above wrong and show how it doesn't fit the factual picture.

Indians are now separated into three distinct beliefs; those that think China hasn't taken much if any of India's claimed lands, those who think India has fought back the PLA already and achieved pre-2020 positions, and those who understand the truth but still think they should fight a war. The last group is further split into those who think they can win the war LOL and those who understand they cannot but should fight one to show resolve to China.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
The PLA and PLAAF has always been geared for fighting massive land war against numerical peer. Only in the 21st century did PLA modernisation (especially space, naval, air, and digital domains) really started showing results and became apparent. This is gearing towards modern warfare which the Gulf wars have shown is how modern war will work or at least heavily involve - technology. However, PLA has modernised but kept its ability to fight adversaries like India. In fact this is its strength - Korean/ 1962 like wars. It reserves the complete ethos of individual unit self dependence, extremely numerous numbers of inexpensive munitions etc. It's now capable of the NATO style, precision strike interdependent networked warfare but reserves the abilities for taking on a war that could look like Korea. Against Indians? The mightiest of martial races? You have to be prepared right?
 

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
Wow, this channel is created exactly 4 months ago and posts China is doomed videos daily. I wonder why.
Exactly. It's information warfare being waged on China and this is one of them. Every time on YouTube when I watch news on China like CGTN, they would then recommend me those garbage anti-China channels like: NDTV, Zooming In with Simone Gao, The Epoch Times, etc. Then on this year, WION started getting more appearances when Covid-19 started rampaging in China. When the Ladakh crisis started, TFT then started featuring more prominently. The real problem is YouTube. They have now become part of the US propaganda machinery.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top