Ladakh Flash Point


Gatekeeper

Captain
Registered Member
Rafale purchase by India was a result of Indian corrupt government and nothing more. India may have bought Mirages in the past but they've also bought Su-30s, Su-30MKIs, and Mig-29s of many types after Mirage purchases. It's not like India can only choose French and Russian, they do have the American and European (UK and Eurofighter) options open even if politics may complicate things more than dealing with the French and Russians.

Over 200 Million USD for each Rafale even if it includes weapons, parts, and some custom Indian equipment, is still outrageous price to pay. F-35 partners are receiving F-35s for about half this price for package deals that include all support too. How many millions are going into the pockets of each Indian political and industrial figure behind this? It's a great thing for China that the IAF has decided to spend billions on 36 Rafales which they will not be able to ever upgrade or build entirely themselves. In 20 years time, they'll need to spend billions with France just to upgrade them if they're not already all gone if IAF ever properly go to war.

Egypt has decided to buy Su-35 over more Rafales. Belgium rejected it even after France and Dassault offered Belgium a deal better than what they offered the Indians in terms of economic returns. Qatar, South Korea, Morroco, Brazil, and Singapore all tested the Rafale and rejected it, preferring something else. India itself cut orders from 126 to 36, it isn't building the fighter domestically and it isn't receiving any serious technology. Absolute lunacy to think 36 Rafales would represent a genuine threat in 5 or 10 years time when all are fully trained and combat ready.

Instead of thinking, Indians are only saying rubbish like why would China buy Su-35 when it has J-20. Lol. China received Su-35s before J-20 barely went into LRIP. No tactics and training were done with J-20s and the multitude of reasons why PLAAF bought a small number of Su-35s were explained. To debunk this Indian lie about Su-35 being better than J-20, why does PLAAF not buy any more Su-35 now? Since it's clearly better than J-20, why then is PLAAF busy ordering and CAC busy building J-20 as fast as they can while Su-35 orders have not happened for many, many years. Remember the Su-35 order was done more than half a decade ago now and they were only working out the specifics and numbers for years.

The US would buy some small batches of Su-35 if it were available to them as well. It offers a lot more than the simplistic view that any and all purchases must become top of the line, backbone service units in the purchaser's inventory. What a bunch of clowns these Indians are. The US would also buy S-400 if they could. They did buy some Kh-31 in the past, does that mean it is superior to everything in US? Did they copy it for frontline units? No they copied the Kh-31 as a target missile for shooting practice knowing that many opponents have similar weapons. The Su-35 simulates Su-30MKI and flies better than the MKI. It also offers PLAAF and industries a lot of insight into Russian fighters and equipment. The engines are also pretty good but you cannot reverse engineer engine materials. Only the TVC performance and design were of value to Chinese engineers and PLAAF. Even then, the engineers only compared Russian TVC with their own that was publicly flown on J-10B, probably tested years before already. The Su-35's TVC can be compared to the Chinese one on the WS-10 and these lessons used to design the WS-15's probably.

Anyway to sum things up Rafale would be lucky to make any difference against a combo of J-10C and J-16 networked with the rest of PLAAF. It'll take IAF months and months to integrate the Rafale with the rest of IAF in tactics, datalinking, and operational training. At most PLAAF may counter the tiny number of Rafales with a few J-10Cs and J-16s.
This Indian purchase of Rafales making Indians think it's a game changer and celebrating like there's no tomorrow. It makes them forget how dependent they are on foreign arms suppliers.

They have not learnt the lessons of Argentina when during the Falklands, they were unable to purchase replacement arms because French, under pressures from British, refused to sell to them.
 

Figaro

Junior Member
Registered Member
There is this very familiar feeling about the Indian reaction to Rafales that I couldn’t quite place until earlier today — they are reacting pretty much the same way the Chinese did when the J-20 was revealed. The key difference here being that China was celebrating a leap in domestic capabilities whereas India is celebrating an imported fighter.

I wonder if something similar will happen when acquired Su-57 or F-35 land in India?
It is basically impossible for India to get the F-35 now due to their purchase of the S-400. I also highly doubt they're going to purchase an off the shelf fighter (Su-57) they themselves derided for not being fifth generation. So for the foreseeable future, they are stuck with the Rafael ... hence the jubilation surrounding its arrival.
 

ougoah

Captain
Registered Member
It is basically impossible for India to get the F-35 now due to their purchase of the S-400. I also highly doubt they're going to purchase an off the shelf fighter (Su-57) they themselves derided for not being fifth generation. So for the foreseeable future, they are stuck with the Rafael ... hence the jubilation surrounding its arrival.
AMCA is twenty years away from flying if it ever flies. Even though some fanboys claim AMCA will fly before 2030. No matter what happens, every sane person knows India will not have a flying 5th gen prototype before 2030 unless it is developed by someone else. It's a more ridiculous target than achieving "superpower" status by 2012 which btw didn't happen. It's not like Indian got there at 2012 and within a few weeks miraculously went back to the stone age again.

F-35 requires India to wait in line. Also something they can't afford in numbers just like the Rafale. In fact 36 Rafales have dented India's military budget as it is. Compare how much they are spending as a percentage of their budget on this Rafale deal alone against an equivalent e.g. Australia's F-35 order not counting partner nation contributions. This is why the Rafale deal helps Pakistan and doesn't faze China a single bit.

Su-57 is only realistic 5th gen option on offer for India or long term, KFX/ Tempest/ FCAS. Same money issue with those and the proposed Japanese F-3. All of those have far greater chances of happening and succeeding than AMCA.
 

Chish

Junior Member
Registered Member
Keep in mind that B.S. Dhanoa is the same IAF chief who claimed that Su-30MKIs detected J-20s flying close to the Indian border.

Seems like he is someone who relentlessly lives up to his name, in particular the first two initials.
By the ways they talks, I am beginning to suspect that many IAF personals are smooth- talking artists who B.S. their way to their posts.
 

siegecrossbow

Brigadier
Staff member
Super Moderator
It is basically impossible for India to get the F-35 now due to their purchase of the S-400. I also highly doubt they're going to purchase an off the shelf fighter (Su-57) they themselves derided for not being fifth generation. So for the foreseeable future, they are stuck with the Rafael ... hence the jubilation surrounding its arrival.
Su-57 is not fifth gen and Rafale is? My head hurts.
 

Petrolicious88

Junior Member
Registered Member
Rafale purchase by India was a result of Indian corrupt government and nothing more. India may have bought Mirages in the past but they've also bought Su-30s, Su-30MKIs, and Mig-29s of many types after Mirage purchases. It's not like India can only choose French and Russian, they do have the American and European (UK and Eurofighter) options open even if politics may complicate things more than dealing with the French and Russians.

Over 200 Million USD for each Rafale even if it includes weapons, parts, and some custom Indian equipment, is still outrageous price to pay. F-35 partners are receiving F-35s for about half this price for package deals that include all support too. How many millions are going into the pockets of each Indian political and industrial figure behind this? It's a great thing for China that the IAF has decided to spend billions on 36 Rafales which they will not be able to ever upgrade or build entirely themselves. In 20 years time, they'll need to spend billions with France just to upgrade them if they're not already all gone if IAF ever properly go to war.

Egypt has decided to buy Su-35 over more Rafales. Belgium rejected it even after France and Dassault offered Belgium a deal better than what they offered the Indians in terms of economic returns. Qatar, South Korea, Morroco, Brazil, and Singapore all tested the Rafale and rejected it, preferring something else. India itself cut orders from 126 to 36, it isn't building the fighter domestically and it isn't receiving any serious technology. Absolute lunacy to think 36 Rafales would represent a genuine threat in 5 or 10 years time when all are fully trained and combat ready.

Instead of thinking, Indians are only saying rubbish like why would China buy Su-35 when it has J-20. Lol. China received Su-35s before J-20 barely went into LRIP. No tactics and training were done with J-20s and the multitude of reasons why PLAAF bought a small number of Su-35s were explained. To debunk this Indian lie about Su-35 being better than J-20, why does PLAAF not buy any more Su-35 now? Since it's clearly better than J-20, why then is PLAAF busy ordering and CAC busy building J-20 as fast as they can while Su-35 orders have not happened for many, many years. Remember the Su-35 order was done more than half a decade ago now and they were only working out the specifics and numbers for years.

The US would buy some small batches of Su-35 if it were available to them as well. It offers a lot more than the simplistic view that any and all purchases must become top of the line, backbone service units in the purchaser's inventory. What a bunch of clowns these Indians are. The US would also buy S-400 if they could. They did buy some Kh-31 in the past, does that mean it is superior to everything in US? Did they copy it for frontline units? No they copied the Kh-31 as a target missile for shooting practice knowing that many opponents have similar weapons. The Su-35 simulates Su-30MKI and flies better than the MKI. It also offers PLAAF and industries a lot of insight into Russian fighters and equipment. The engines are also pretty good but you cannot reverse engineer engine materials. Only the TVC performance and design were of value to Chinese engineers and PLAAF. Even then, the engineers only compared Russian TVC with their own that was publicly flown on J-10B, probably tested years before already. The Su-35's TVC can be compared to the Chinese one on the WS-10 and these lessons used to design the WS-15's probably.

Anyway to sum things up Rafale would be lucky to make any difference against a combo of J-10C and J-16 networked with the rest of PLAAF. It'll take IAF months and months to integrate the Rafale with the rest of IAF in tactics, datalinking, and operational training. At most PLAAF may counter the tiny number of Rafales with a few J-10Cs and J-16s.
The Rafales are not a threat by itself. the Meteor missile that comes with it is the bigger problem.

Remember Pakistan was able to shoot down an Indian Mig and directly threaten Indian Su-30s because it was equipped with the longer range AMRAAM. The Meteor evens the odds, and will likely be a serious threat to most 4th gen jets.
 

Nobonita Barua

Junior Member
Registered Member
The Rafales are not a threat by itself. the Meteor missile that comes with it is the bigger problem.
........................The Meteor evens the odds, and will likely be a serious threat to most 4th gen jets.
You missed the most important part. It would be a serious threat...in hands on capable air force.
In case of indians, 2 scenarios are most likely
1. Either they are going to blow up their own aircraft thinking those are F16s & J20s
2. Or China should take a page out of her paki ally's book & send mysterious spy pigeons. Last time i checked, indians are freaking terrified of laser firing spy pigeons from their western neighbor. They are probably going to fire all of their meteor missiles totally destroying those spy pigeons sent by treacherous China & will claim a comprehensive victory before the next phase starts.
 

ougoah

Captain
Registered Member
The Rafales are not a threat by itself. the Meteor missile that comes with it is the bigger problem.

Remember Pakistan was able to shoot down an Indian Mig and directly threaten Indian Su-30s because it was equipped with the longer range AMRAAM. The Meteor evens the odds, and will likely be a serious threat to most 4th gen jets.
If they could use a Mig-21 to fire and give justice to the Meteor by some miracle, it would be almost as "threatening" as the Rafale. The Rafale in this view is just a super expensive launching platform for the Meteor which the Gripen could also do. The Gripen is integrated with the Meteor already but no idea how well the radar can exploit the range capabilities of the Meteor but it probably wouldn't be too far from the Rafale. Why wouldn't they have bought Gripen? Maybe the possibility of US sanctions on F414 parts could become an issue but the Gripen if anything has superior EW and "electronic stealth" than the Rafale, all for a much cheaper price.

Truth is the Rafale offers the IAF far better performance than the Mirages and Fulcrums even without the Meteor. India still wants to upgrade the MKIs with better radars.
 

Petrolicious88

Junior Member
Registered Member
You missed the most important part. It would be a serious threat...in hands on capable air force.
In case of indians, 2 scenarios are most likely
1. Either they are going to blow up their own aircraft thinking those are F16s & J20s
2. Or China should take a page out of her paki ally's book & send mysterious spy pigeons. Last time i checked, indians are freaking terrified of laser firing spy pigeons from their western neighbor. They are probably going to fire all of their meteor missiles totally destroying those spy pigeons sent by treacherous China & will claim a comprehensive victory before the next phase starts.
Don’t ever underestimate your adversary. The Rafael will be equipped with the Meteor, and Hammer.
If they could use a Mig-21 to fire and give justice to the Meteor by some miracle, it would be almost as "threatening" as the Rafale. The Rafale in this view is just a super expensive launching platform for the Meteor which the Gripen could also do. The Gripen is integrated with the Meteor already but no idea how well the radar can exploit the range capabilities of the Meteor but it probably wouldn't be too far from the Rafale. Why wouldn't they have bought Gripen? Maybe the possibility of US sanctions on F414 parts could become an issue but the Gripen if anything has superior EW and "electronic stealth" than the Rafale, all for a much cheaper price.

Truth is the Rafale offers the IAF far better performance than the Mirages and Fulcrums even without the Meteor. India still wants to upgrade the MKIs with better radars.
Yes. The Rafael with its radar and the meteor missile is a major upgrade. No doubt about that. We can’t underestimate the range and accuracy of that middle once Indian amass sufficient quantities of it.
 

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