Ladakh Flash Point

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twineedle

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ougoah said:
It's controversial? Who said that. You made a claim that this was disputed. I'm asking you to show what location is disputed and prove it is disputed. I'm only aware that the southern part is disputed and that was when China wanted to negotiate with Bhutan for that disputed section. It did it the proper way, diplomatic negotiations where Bhutan could refuse and ask for a better deal than what China offered. It didn't annex it, it wasn't invaded, there was no violence or threats.

Remember that India interjected and stopped the negotiations and at that point there was an impasse. China didn't force anyone to do anything and in fact the result prove all this.

So the thing I am asking for is for you to prove that the northern part where China built its road (that wasn't objected to by India or Bhutan) is disputed and that China certainly used disputed land to build on.
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India and/or Bhutan may have objected to Chinese presence there at the time, but had accepted it by 2017, the time of the standoff. This doesn't mean that Bhutan doesnt still claim the entire Plateau, like it does other areas controlled by China.

This is the general area on google maps, which shows the entire plateau as being within Bhutan despite there being plenty of roads from China in the north, in addition to new PLA camps built since 2017 in the northern part.
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The point is, Bhutan had rejected China's offers for other areas going to Bhutan in exchange for the rest of Doklam down to Jampheri going to China.
 
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twineedle

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ougoah said:
India forced China to take one of two routes, either engage in a war with India over the Doklam drama or find another part to connect the road.

China choosing the latter isn't some Indian victory or some affront. It was a good decision. Why would China go to war over a road connection? India put military presence in southern Doklam to make sure negotiations didn't go ahead and even if some bilateral agreement is reached between China and Bhutan, India would not allow it. China chose not to engage India. Is that proof of anything other than China decided a war with India over this road connection isn't worth the trouble?

Yet Indians like to imagine it is proof India is stronger than China simply because China couldn't be bothered and rerouting the road is going to achieve the objective. What China wanted was to connect that road, it needed to use that piece of disputed land. There were other solutions and since it turned from simply negotiating a swap with Bhutan into a war with India just to connect that road, China decided on those other solutions. It has been done and the road has long been connected. And there it is.

There is nothing more to that drama but it is useful to remember that India did interject and place that choice with China, engage militarily or reroute, with China's plans disrupted wrt BRI. So I was using it previously as a reason for why China considers India antagonistic to itself and its interests. This has nothing to do with India. It doesn't threaten India, it doesn't India and yet India wants to mess with BRI because ... well truthfully we all know why.
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China didn't connect the road to Jampheri though. It built a road in a completely unrelated area. not in Doklam.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1331185386345750533
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
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twineedle said:
India and/or Bhutan may have objected to Chinese presence there at the time, but had accepted it by 2017, the time of the standoff. This doesn't mean that Bhutan doesnt still claim the entire Plateau, like it does other areas controlled by China.

This is the general area on google maps, which shows the entire plateau as being within Bhutan despite there being plenty of roads from China in the north, in addition to new PLA camps built since 2017 in the northern part.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The point is, Bhutan had rejected China's offers for other areas going to Bhutan in exchange for the rest of Doklam down to Jampheri going to China.
Click to expand...

What is this? Just proof by proclamation?

You are making some big claims but no evidence.

You can start with that google map and draw out exactly the lines where the Chinese roads are and then outline the 2D space where the land you are claiming is Bhutan's. Then find any neutral and reputable source evidence to say this 2D space is disputed before 2017.
 
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twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
ougoah said:
What is this? Just proof by proclamation?

You are making some big claims but no evidence.

You can start with that google map and draw out exactly the lines where the Chinese roads are and then outline the 2D space where the land you are claiming is Bhutan's. Then find any neutral and reputable source evidence to say this 2D space is disputed before 2017.
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When did I say it is Bhutan's? I am simply saying Bhutan claims it, as does China. I was simply showing you the general area of the plateau, you can see for yourself where the chinese presence is.

The fact that two countries have claims over the area mean that by definition, it is disputed. China has had presence in disputed areas with India for decades(and vice versa) so why is it so hard to believe that China was also in some disputed areas with Bhutan?
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
twineedle said:
China didn't connect the road to Jampheri though. It built a road in a completely unrelated area. not in Doklam.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1331185386345750533
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Exactly China connected the road elsewhere. The BRI road that this stretch serves was connected elsewhere to avoid this drama.

China didn't invade Bhutan, didn't annex it, didn't attack or threaten it.

The aim of China before Indian interjection was to negotiate with Bhutan for this stretch so that this particular connection could be completed quickly and easily. Since Indian interjection changed the dynamics and forced China to either find another route or to go to war with India, China decided to find another route.

When China goes for those peaceful way outs, it is presented as Indian victory and Chinese humiliation. You guys should realise the real humiliation is in the one on its knees trying to drag the one flying around down to its level and force it to fight in a worthless struggle. Somehow that is a victory and humiliation?

I suppose if a hobo challenged Conor McGregor to a street fight and CM rejected the offer, it would also be hobo victory and a deep humiliation for Conor McGregor? Or maybe not?

China did connect the BRI road this intended stretch was to serve right? Isn't that objective achieved?

More importantly, the whole point of bringing this up was to show the forum and readers that China indeed has reason to suspect India is just acting antagonist regardless of what the situation is. Imagine if Greek or Italian parts of BRI was attacked by Russia and Russia demanded China stop building ports there and force Greece to stay quiet. Of course China would consider it an act against China. Russia considers the delaying of Nord Stream for decade to be an act against it and so it is!
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
twineedle said:
When did I say it is Bhutan's? I am simply saying Bhutan claims it, as does China. I was simply showing you the general area of the plateau, you can see for yourself where the chinese presence is.

The fact that two countries have claims over the area mean that by definition, it is disputed. China has had presence in disputed areas with India for decades(and vice versa) so why is it so hard to believe that China was also in some disputed areas with Bhutan?
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Okay you didn't say it was Bhutan's. But you are saying it is disputed. I am asking you for proof that the places China was at prior to 2017, was disputed. The southern part is disputed no doubt. This is why both negotiated for a swap in which Bhutan was happy to participate in since they were in many talks with China before India interjected.

I'm asking you to prove that the other parts that had Chinese presence was also disputed.
 
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twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
ougoah said:
Exactly China connected the road elsewhere. The BRI road that this stretch serves was connected elsewhere to avoid this drama.

China didn't invade Bhutan, didn't annex it, didn't attack or threaten it.

The aim of China before Indian interjection was to negotiate with Bhutan for this stretch so that this particular connection could be completed quickly and easily. Since Indian interjection changed the dynamics and forced China to either find another route or to go to war with India, China decided to find another route.

When China goes for those peaceful way outs, it is presented as Indian victory and Chinese humiliation. You guys should realise the real humiliation is in the one on its knees trying to drag the one flying around down to its level and force it to fight in a worthless struggle. Somehow that is a victory and humiliation?

I suppose if a hobo challenged Conor McGregor to a street fight and CM rejected the offer, it would also be hobo victory and a deep humiliation for Conor McGregor? Or maybe not?

China did connect the BRI road this intended stretch was to serve right? Isn't that objective achieved?

More importantly, the whole point of bringing this up was to show the forum and readers that China indeed has reason to suspect India is just acting antagonist regardless of what the situation is. Imagine if Greek or Italian parts of BRI was attacked by Russia and Russia demanded China stop building ports there and force Greece to stay quiet. Of course China would consider it an act against China. Russia considers the delaying of Nord Stream for decade to be an act against it and so it is!
Click to expand...
Bhutan is not a part of BRI. China had intended its road to go to Jampheri because it overlooks the Siligui corridor, in addition to crossing to disputed territory with Bhutan. That is why India intervened. The road China built does not go to Jampheri, and poses no threat to India, hence India did not intervene.
 
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twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
ougoah said:
Okay you didn't say it was Bhutan's. But you are saying it is disputed. I am asking you for proof that the places China was at prior to 2017, was disputed. The southern part is disputed no doubt. This is why both negotiated for a swap in which Bhutan was happy to participate in since they were in many talks with China before India interjected.

I'm asking you to prove that the other parts that had Chinese presence was also disputed.
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Bhutan officialy claims that the northern part of Doklam is within its territory, even if it is willing to let China have it as part of a diplomatic solution.

And Bhutan has consistently rejected China's request for a land swap involving South Doklam going to China. Both sides care about it the most because of its strategic significance.

Did you read the thread by Tenzing Lamsay?
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
twineedle said:
Bhutan is not a part of BRI. China had intended its road to go to Jampheri because it overlooks the Siligui corridor, in addition to crossing to disputed territory with Bhutan. That is why India intervened. The road China built does not go to Jampheri, and poses no threat to India, hence India did not intervene.
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Does the road China built go through Indian land? What right has India got to say what road China can build within China?

I don't think the tiny section of a road connection that goes through a small part of southern Doklam is a threat to India worthy of India stopping it because it is a military threat.
 
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