Ladakh Flash Point

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rhino123

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Keep thinking that way... Plus... Isn't it kind of shameful that twenty 'much better trained' Indian soldiers were slaughtered and fifty captured in a brief crash with the men on the street... While the Indian can only boast verbally that they killed hundreds in that crash.

Oops... Said too much... Not wanting to hurt the feeling of our Indian friends.
 

Richard Santos

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Also, modern armies don’t win real battles with fists and clubs. So comparing who came off better in an unarmed brawl is stupid. it bespeaks of a thuggish, medieval mentality.
 

Richard Santos

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That's a highly ignorant statement. It doesn't matter what weapon you use, be it guns, tanks, or sticks, the essence of an army is discipline and morale.

there is far far more to an army victorious in a modern war then such aggression snd morale as might be exhibited for a short time at the first point of conflict.

I have little doubt that any significant army can find a picked unit of a few hundred men with high degree of morale, discipline and aggression that would be a match fir any other in a brawl.

But that says nothing about how good the entire army is in a modern war.
 
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manqiangrexue

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there is far far more to an army victorious in a modern war then such aggression snd morale as might be exhibited for a short time at the first point of conflict.

I have little doubt that any significant army can find a picked unit of a few hundred men with high degree of morale, discipline and aggression that would be a match fir any other in a brawl.

But that says nothing about how good the entire army is in a modern war.
But the fact is India cannot. It selected men for an attack who scattered to their own dooms when the opposition presented itself. China did not select its toughest and best soldiers to place into a conflict it could not imagine would erupt from a cowardly ambush on a handful of unarmed negotiators. India is China's weakest antagonist with the likes of Japan and the US on the other side. Whomever was there showed what they had and this random sampling showed Chinese courage and morale far outclassing India's and even after this event, with every opportunity to prepare, India has not answered with any select unit of aggressive fighters that can answer China.

But of course, combat spirit and morale are only one facet of war, otherwise the Spartans would still dominate that area of Europe. Competence in technology is at least as important. And India is a country known for wrecking its own jets, setting its own ships on fire, submerging its submarines with the hatch open, launching warships into the water upside down, multiple tanks breaking down in the same event, fratricide in war, etc... and then on top of it all, rewarding the most incompetent to appear as though the failure was a success.

Sure, it is true that hand-to-hand combat prowess does not indicate the most powerful military, but what is your point pertaining to this China vs India topic?
 

ougoah

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Let's take a moment to remember that India needed a dozen or so armed men with iron bars (back in Jan to March 2020 period) to beat up and kill a Chinese communication liaison officer who exited his vehicle because it was his job to engage in dialogue.

Then recall that Indians claimed they were unarmed (officially!) and then PLA released just some teaser photos and videos proving without any doubt that not only were the Indian armed with iron bars (and a few with rifles) but also riot gear body armour and helmets when the PLA were wearing standard uniform without even a hardhat let alone riot gear helmets.

The Indians were prepared for engagements and brawls and in the June clash, most likely instigated it. CCP shared their official side of the entire event. From beginning to end the story from the CCP has not deviated once. The Indians shared literally 2 or 3 official versions of the story and each one contradicted the previous version. From nothing is happening to we were surprise attacked to we were not armed and then not defending their own version of the story or challenging China's official narrative. They know China has all the evidence (plus the captured men and their recount/disclosure).

India lied about being armed and defenceless. Lied about China surprise attack LOL it was a Chinese position guarded by a few PLA and Chinese construction workers that were attacked by indians. How else could it be possible that India had 20+ men killed and dozens captured by the PLA if the Indians didn't use close to (or more than) 100 men to attack the position. I believe the Chinese may have known about the Indian attack. These days it's too easy to have a satellite or a few drones with thermals monitoring and would have seen the Indian group approaching. PLA definitely sent reinforcements that the Indians didn't expect.

Well China has had over a decade of producing 20+ types of medium to heavy military drones from supersonics to B-52 sized near space sub hunters. Even a commercial level $200 hobby drone with a decent thermal camera and cheap comms can do that job.
 

Xizor

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( Remember the very interesting back and forth of words and remarks between Indian Sukhoi and F22 pilots after exercises?)
A correction. I don't think F22 took part in the exercise.

It was Sukhoi 30 MKI vs F15C.
Read more on that -

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Also, India recently had an exercise where Sukhoi 30 MKI faced off Euro fighter Typhoon FGR4 - leading to similar exchange.
 

ougoah

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Interesting discussion about India-China relationship on Indian media site ThePrint between Prof Kanti Bajpai of the Lew Kuan Yew School of Public Policy at the National University of Singapore and Prof Kishore Mahbubani, Distinguished Fellow & China scholar at the Asia Research Institute, National University of Singapore. At the closing of the discussion Kishore Mahbubani suggested that India chose the losing side during the Cold War, and it may also have chosen the wrong side this time too, i.e., in the competition between the US and China.

I watched quite a few interviews and discussions that Kishore Mahbubani participated with various Indian media, his love-and-hate with India was quite obvious. Ambassador Kishore Mahbubani is well-known to be pro-China, but he is also ethnic Indian. So it's quite interesting to watch the his interactions with Indian media and pundits.



Prof. Mahbubani is not entirely anti India or pro China. He's a relatively unbiased (Indian Singaporean I think?) man who is also exceptionally knowledgeable, not only because of his past UN role. He is simply taking a position where I suspect he feels India is not being governed or doing what it could to progress faster and in better ways. He's an occasional proponent of China because (again I suspect) he feels China does a half decent job of showing "alternatives" to western systems of thinking and proving to Asian peoples that non-caucasians with similar starting problems as PRC to be perfectly capable of progressing and gaining all that ground within two generations.

I think part of his motivations come from a sense of identity separate from western values. He is ethnically non-western after all and probably knows how the game really works and is about (which most of us do already). Something I hope many more Indian (and Chinese too) people can eventually wake up to.

If India were ruled by intelligent and more incorruptible characters, it would never have 1. found an enemy in China back during respective nations births and 2. have had the wisdom to understand everything far more holistically than Nehru and now Modi. But the aggravations are now commonplace and so far gone even Chinese are participating in it. Which is something I am guilty of as well. It's a shame but with China, it respects ones that demonstrate ability. I think if and when India eventually develops genuine power and ability, China would consider it both a threat and equal but would not act the way western powers do when a near peer approaches. Just like how ancient Chinese had relations with Persians, Indians (or whatever group in power in the subcontinent), and anyone else it considered "ascended" civilisations of rough parity - peaceful trade. Warring with Japan goes both ways no one knows which came first and conquering Tibet and Xingjiang were done under Mongol expansionist rule. The Mongols conquered all the way through the middle east and up to European Russia so they were always about that.

Unfortunately India is ruled the way it is and its leaders do resemble close cooperatives of western agendas if not occasionally being direct policy extensions. Something the early communists long suspected, back then due more to concerns for the residual effects of colonialism India suffered through. I suspect they were correct all this time but of course, China never did much to avoid those situations. Scoring perfectly in some ways and failing miserably in others.

India is not a great performer today. It isn't taken seriously by China. This isn't to say India hasn't got potential or that it would forever be locked in some antagonistic role. It hasn't demonstrated ability that is worth great attention. If and when it does, it would receive plenty of respect and rather than being confronted with fear and anger from China, there would be Chinese leadership attempts to convert the situation into a friendly one - similar to past ways of dealing with peer civilisations. As in the CCP would not bother confronting into some Thucydides trap like the US and western ways seem to deal with this stuff. It would gradually ease tensions (with India rising in power). It's the opposite of how western powers behave. I suspect India is actually culturally similar to China in this regard. It is because that China currently does not consider India to be much, it pays little effort to make the relationship a positive one. And as much as China prefers to have working relations with the west, the west will not have it. The west beats down on a lesser China, something a little incongruous with much of Chinese thinking. We're narrow minded in our own ways.
 
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Abominable

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Also, modern armies don’t win real battles with fists and clubs. So comparing who came off better in an unarmed brawl is stupid. it bespeaks of a thuggish, medieval mentality.
You are wrong Rekesh. Unless you think the skirmish last year was a dream.

Even excluding those unique circumstances, modern battles may come down to hand to hand fighting. Look at WW2, Korea, Vietnam.
 
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