Ladakh Flash Point

twineedle said:

The above image was a timelapse showing how the specific conflict point(Kugrang Valley) east of pp15 changed between last June and April, which is the only conflict point in the area. I have already posted two zoomed out and annotated maps(Abhijit Iyer's and Detresfa's).

Click to expand...

And I've kept pointing out that both are inadequate in detail and relevance. Why don't you make a map of your own.

Kugrang River lies to the west of Changlung river. And a bit downstream to the Camps at Changlung (PP15 point) is where they meet.
Indian Army, hasn't moved east.

And all this is never in Chinese controlled region but within what is Indian controlled region.

The Indian media report itself says that no improvements have been made in the two regions PP15 and PP17A.

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And btw, do go back some posts, you insisted that Indian army somehow "secured" DBO by taking mountain tops in Galwan. The DBO runs parallel to Shyok and not Galwan.

PP15 il somewhere around where the Kugrang and Changlung meet. India's camp is east of that. And no,India never patrolled byond that point in the valley, as shown by the lack of road connectivity between the Valley and camps further South and West until last year. THe PPs mark the limit of Indian patrols, Indian soldiers never patrol exactly up to their perception of the LAC. Don't see how this is an "Indian controlled region? when Indian troops neer patrolled past the Kugrang Changlung confluence. Shukla claimed PP15 was off limits to Indian troops, that has been proven false since Indian Army has a camp east of pp15, not even the Indian media report supports his claims.
And I thought Indian media is unreliable? Funny how Indian media is now trustworthy and Detresfa is biased.
The Point marked is likely around the location of pp15

twineedle said:

PP15 il somewhere around where the Kugrang and Changlung meet. India's camp is east of that. And no,India never patrolled byond that point in the valley, as shown by the lack of road connectivity between the Valley and camps further South and West until last year. THe PPs mark the limit of Indian patrols, Indian soldiers never patrol exactly up to their perception of the LAC. Don't see how this is an "Indian controlled region? when Indian troops neer patrolled past the Kugrang Changlung confluence. Shukla claimed PP15 was off limits to Indian troops, that has been proven false since Indian Army has a camp east of pp15, not even the Indian media report supports his claims.
And I thought Indian media is unreliable? Funny how Indian media is now trustworthy and Detresfa is biased.
The Point marked is likely around the location of pp15

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Click to expand...

Bold 1: PP15 is somewhere there. No one argued.

Bold 2: Kungrag Valley lies west of that point. Not east. (If Kungrang Valley is the valley enclosing Kungrang River)

Bold 3: PPs lie some distance away from perceived LAC. You are just pointing out that China has a Camp a km or so deep into LAC of India.

Bold 4: isn't the region south, east and southwest of PP15 controlled by India. Don't tell me India doesn't even control that.

Bold 5: Never patrolled North of the confluence? East? South?

Bold 6: Shukla claimed that back in August 2020. Since then much has happened. He was vindicated that Chinese posts do exist into LAC near PP15 but finer details could change as situation changed since. We discussed all this weeks before.


Bold 7: Strawman. Indian media was quoted to show how different narratives exists. It's upto you to resolve that.

Refer previous posts. Try not to beat a dead horse by merely copy pasting and forging stories out of twitter posts.

No Indian soldiers never patrolled north of pp15, the confluence. If you zoom in on google maps it is clear that aside from the road built in 2020 leading to the new Indian camp, there are no roads going past the confluence, let alone to the lac(Indian perception). As stated by multiple sources, pps mark the limits of Indian patrolling, even though they are typically a few km from the lac.


And China's perception of the lac is roughly the confluence of the Kugrang and Changlung, west of the new Indian camp, roads and helipad.

And nobody said there were never any PLA posts within India's perception, that became clear around June. As the above time lapse showed, all but at most one were withdrawn. Shukla made a specific claim that PLA was denying India access to pp15, which has been disproven, even by his own questionable perception of the pps

twineedle said:

No Indian soldiers never patrolled north of pp15, the confluence. If you zoom in on google maps it is clear that aside from the road built in 2020 leading to the new Indian camp, there are no roads going past the confluence, let alone to the lac(Indian perception). As stated by multiple sources, pps mark the limits of Indian patrolling, even though they are typically a few km from the lac.

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And China's perception of the lac is roughly the confluence of the Kugrang and Changlung, west of the new Indian camp, roads and helipad.

And nobody said there were never any PLA posts within India's perception, that became clear around June. As the above time lapse showed, all but at most one were withdrawn. Shukla made a specific claim that PLA was denying India access to pp15, which has been disproven, even by his own questionable perception of the pps

Click to expand...

You are arguing against yourself here.

The primary claim of yours were this -

twineedle said:

As of this winter, both sides have a camp in the disputed area in the Kugrang Valley, East of pp15. So there is still one camp within India's perception, though Indian army is also deployed within China's perception of LAC. So far there is no evidence of any confrontation East of Gogra.

There was partial disengagement in July, when most PLA camps were withdrawn, as shown below, although that was not completed.

Click to expand...

Kungrang river in PP15 region meets the Changlung River from the West and proceeds South where it meets Chang Chenmo river.

In no way does any part of Kungrang River or region be Chinese controlled since 1962 and these areas are Indian controlled.


Don't you see? If you are saying China has a camp east of PP15 in Kungrag, it means China has intruded even more into Indian controlled region.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. it has already been established that pp15 is around the confluence of the Kugrang and Changlung, and that historically marked the limits of Indian patrols. Inida's pereceptionis is the lac shown on google maps, while China's perception is very near the clonfluence. This difference in perception is clearly marked on Detresfa's map by the red dot.
Previously, this area was unoccupied even though it falls within both sides' perceptions. The patrol points mark the limits of India's patrolled, meaning that India never patrolled past the confluence and definitely did not "control" the area north and east of the Kugrang. Obviously last summer China set up camps within India's perception backed up by forward artillery and armor on its side and India mirror deployed. Last July both sides agreed to partial disengagement and PLA withdrew all camps except one. Now both sides have a single camp within the red circle well beyond pp15, in areas neither side had controlled before. The Indian camp is northeast of pp15 and within the Chinese perception. Don't know why this is so hard to understand.

And when did I say China controlled the are since 1962? Before 2020 the area was unoccupied with the exception of China's post at Kongka LA and India's post at Gogra. India neither patrolled nor controlled anywhere north of pp15, the Kugrang Changlung confluence.

twineedle said:

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. it has already been established that pp15 is around the confluence of the Kugrang and Changlung, and that historically marked the limits of Indian patrols. Inida's pereceptionis is the lac shown on google maps, while China's perception is very near the clonfluence. This difference in perception is clearly marked on Detresfa's map by the red dot.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366248078580195332

Previously, this area was unoccupied even though it falls within both sides' perceptions. The patrol points mark the limits of India's patrolled, meaning that India never patrolled past the confluence and definitely did not "control" the area north and east of the Kugrang. Obviously last summer China set up camps within India's perception backed up by forward artillery and armor on its side and India mirror deployed. Last July both sides agreed to partial disengagement and PLA withdrew all camps except one. Now both sides have a single camp within the red circle well beyond pp15, in areas neither side had controlled before. The Indian camp is northeast of pp15 and within the Chinese perception.

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Not perhaps. You are definitely not clear about most thing you say.

We are not arguing the location of PP15. But your claims regarding Chinese camps east of PP15 in Kungrong Valley.

I think I've posted a good map showing the rivers and with that I hope your primary assertions have been rebutted.

(Please do. I'm trying to help here. If you insist on a Chinese camp east of PP15 then that means China intruded and took even more land).

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Bold 3: Yes. Good.
The Chinese camp do exist in that red circle till now (the point you show) that region is Changlung river. Or more aptly PP15 region.

Bold 2: China deployed Artillery near PP15 with the camps? The Artillery I know for PP15 was within China's LAC.


They did have an Artillery in PP19 (east of PP17A)

siegecrossbow said:

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For Covid? Seems to be using a DRDO engineered vaporizer.
Not bad.

Xsizor said:

Not perhaps. You are definitely not clear about most thing you say.

We are not arguing the location of PP15. But your claims regarding Chinese camps east of PP15 in Kungrong Valley.

I think I've posted a good map showing the rivers and with that I hope your primary assertions have been rebutted.

(Please do. I'm trying to help here. If you insist on a Chinese camp east of PP15 then that means China intruded and took even more land).

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Bold 3: Yes. Good.
The Chinese camp do exist in that red circle till now (the point you show) that region is Changlung river. Or more aptly PP15 region.

Bold 2: China deployed Artillery near PP15 with the camps? The Artillery I know for PP15 was within China's LAC.


They did have an Artillery in PP19 (east of PP17A)

Click to expand...

There is only one pla camp within India's perception, and that is within the red circle. India also has a camp within Chinese perception in areas it had never patrolled before.

Yes, all of China's artillery and armor are on its side but very close.

Don't know why you are still mentioning pp 19 when that has not been mentioned by the Indian media source you quote, or by any Indian statement.

Currently, the standoff point is within the red circle. PP15 is well behind the Indian camp.

I am open to seeing any evidence of positions at other points.