Korean War 70 years later Win Lose and A draw

solarz · Oct 4, 2020

Max Demian said:
The moral problem I see is that the PRC government, claiming to be the sole legitimate government of China, violated the promise China made in the Cairo declaration of non-aggression and no territorial ambitions by supporting North Korea and intervening in the Korean War.

That is utterly ridiculous. Either you are grossly ignorant or despicably dishonest.

China only intervened in the Korean War after the US ignored repeated warnings not to cross the 38th Parallel. In fact, when China entered the conflict, the US forces were at the border of China!

You must be delusional if you think China was the aggressor here!

Gatekeeper · Oct 4, 2020

Max Demian said:
The UN was always about power plays. The world had already descended into the Cold War by the time the Korean war erupted. In such a polarized world there could never be a unanimous decision on matters of such gravity. Actually, it's quite surprising the PRC government managed to get condemned as an aggressor.

The moral problem I see is that the PRC government, claiming to be the sole legitimate government of China, violated the promise China made in the Cairo declaration of non-aggression and no territorial ambitions by supporting North Korea and intervening in the Korean War. By violating the Cairo declaration, PRC government undermined the legitimacy of China's claim to Taiwan and gave the US and its allies a convenient moral excuse for keeping Taiwan out of communist China's reach. Very badly played by the PRC.

US Secretary of State Acheson in 1950:
"The Cairo Declaration ...declares that Formosa should be returned to China. It also declares ... that Korea should be free and independent. In most of the discussions that we have about Formosa, we are reminded about the Formosan part of the Declaration, and both the Chinese and the Russians forget about the Korean part of the Declaration. Surely, the Declaration of Cairo is an important factor to be taken into consideration in the future settlement. But the future settlement is for the future.

British foreign minister in 1951:
"The Cairo Declaration also proclaimed the intention that Korea should in due course become free and independent. It also expressed acceptance of two principles: non-aggression and no territorial ambitions .... [T]he Prime Minister [Atlee] went on to remark [on December 14, 1950] that until China shows by her action that she is not obstructing fulfilment [sic] of the Cairo Declaration in respect of Korea and accepts the basic principle of that Declaration, it will be difficult to reach a satisfactory solution of this problem [of Formosa] ."

Interesting take on this. My knowledge of the Cairo declaration is somewhat limited.

So I'll have to run with your post for now.

First, I'm puzzled as to why and how PRC China can violate the Cairo declaration when there are not recognised as the legitimate representative of China by every western power at the time.

Further, how PRC China undermined it's claim to Formosa, when Formosa is already part of China under the international recognised ROC China. So one way or another China in one firm or another already have sovereignty over Formosa.

With regards to Korea. The two Koreas were free state recognised by the UN. China only got involved because in an effort to unite as one Korea, the North Korea managed to get the upper hand and nearly succeeded until the US under the guise of the UN intervened.

The US having succeeded in pushing North Korean troops back then decided to completely kill off North Korea, with the aim of going further into China (as per MacArthur publicly declared strategy to get rid of commies). It is only them China intervene out of fear that US will not stop at the Yalu river.

One thing I do concure with you is, because the western MSM is a well oiled machine, it did managed to make China look like the villain in all this.

Gatekeeper · Oct 4, 2020

solarz said:
That is utterly ridiculous. Either you are grossly ignorant or despicably dishonest.

China only intervened in the Korean War after the US ignored repeated warnings not to cross the 38th Parallel. In fact, when China entered the conflict, the US forces were at the border of China!

You must be delusional if you think China was the aggressor here!

You beat me to it. See my replay. I hope I got it right. I'm sure I'm more right than him.

Max Demian · Oct 4, 2020

solarz said:
That is utterly ridiculous. Either you are grossly ignorant or despicably dishonest.
...
You must be delusional if you think China was the aggressor here!

I am merely stating the historical facts. It doesn’t matter what I think. The PRC government attacked the UN forces in Korea and was officially condemned by the UN as an aggressor.

Hendrik_2000 · Oct 4, 2020

Max Demian said:
The UN was always about power plays. The world had already descended into the Cold War by the time the Korean war erupted. In such a polarized world there could never be a unanimous decision on matters of such gravity. Actually, it's quite surprising the PRC government managed to get condemned as an aggressor.

The moral problem I see is that the PRC government, claiming to be the sole legitimate government of China, violated the promise China made in the Cairo declaration of non-aggression and no territorial ambitions by supporting North Korea and intervening in the Korean War. By violating the Cairo declaration, PRC government undermined the legitimacy of China's claim to Taiwan and gave the US and its allies a convenient moral excuse for keeping Taiwan out of communist China's reach. Very badly played by the PRC.

US Secretary of State Acheson in 1950:
"The Cairo Declaration ...declares that Formosa should be returned to China. It also declares ... that Korea should be free and independent. In most of the discussions that we have about Formosa, we are reminded about the Formosan part of the Declaration, and both the Chinese and the Russians forget about the Korean part of the Declaration. Surely, the Declaration of Cairo is an important factor to be taken into consideration in the future settlement. But the future settlement is for the future.

British foreign minister in 1951:
"The Cairo Declaration also proclaimed the intention that Korea should in due course become free and independent. It also expressed acceptance of two principles: non-aggression and no territorial ambitions .... [T]he Prime Minister [Atlee] went on to remark [on December 14, 1950] that until China shows by her action that she is not obstructing fulfilment [sic] of the Cairo Declaration in respect of Korea and accepts the basic principle of that Declaration, it will be difficult to reach a satisfactory solution of this problem [of Formosa] ."

This is absurd I don't believe for once the west will offer Taiwan to China on silver plate Right after CCp declare the formation of PRC There furious criticism of "Who lost China" with the attending Red scare and McCartism Where even a whiff of socialism will end you up in dismissal from job or worst end up in Jail. It all swan song created by the western media China is not even invited in San Francisco meeting to discuss how to dispose Japanese robbery of Chinese island of Taiwan and other her possession including Diaoyutai and Spratley and SCS islet

It just boggle the mind to call China the agressor China didn't enter the war when Mc arthur violated the North Korean by crossing the border at 48th paralled. It was not until McArthur strife and bomb Dandong at the border and promise Chiang Kai Shek to help him return to power in China by threatening to cross the Yalu river that China start to act. After repeated warning not to cross the Yalu river. Which went unheeded out of hubris. Eventually resulting in the longest retreat in the history of US marine, Only overwhelming fire power and huge imbalance in air power rescue the doomed marine

If it is not for Mao impatience attacking seoul against the advice of then Chief commander of Volunteer army PengTehuai, China could have won the war. After driving the US down from 48th paralled Peng advice to consolidate and resupply the troop due to the primitive conditon of Chinese logistic back then But Mao insists of driving to Seoul which end up in disaster!

Any attempt to cross the Yalu river will be consider as Invasion does not really matter who he is Mc Arthur or Hideyoshi the Chinese response has been the same thru history counter attack! Because it endanger the Chinese heartland of Beijing and Tianjin, Shandong peninsula

But the heroic volunteer army again save the day and beat back the repeated UN onslaught at Sangangling finally convince the war lord that Korean war is unwinnable forcing the then American commander to say he does not relish the first US general to enter the war and not ending it

China achieve the result with great sacrifice and bought her 60n years of peace allowing her to concentrate on building economy and lift hundred million out of poverty It is sacrifice worth making!
But dark cloud is now with us again I guess the passage of time make people forget the advice of McArthur never to make land war or Sea war in Asia

When friend come I will treat him with wine but if wolves invade I will greet him with gunfire!

60 year latter the sacrifice is not in vain

Gatekeeper · Oct 4, 2020

Max Demian said:
I am merely stating the historical facts. It doesn’t matter what I think. The PRC government attacked the UN forces in Korea and was condemned by the UN as an aggressor.

But your historical "facts" are incorrect. You are only correct in that the western countries managed to put the blame on china to their populace.

Gatekeeper · Oct 4, 2020

Hendrik_2000 said:
This is absurd I don't believe for once the west will offer Taiwan to China on silver plate Right after CCp declare the formation of PRC There furious criticism of "Who lost China" with the attending Red scare and McCartism Where even a whiff of socialism will end you up in dismissal from job or worst end up in Jail. It all swan song created by the western media China is not even invited in San Francisco meeting to discuss how to dispose Japanese robbery of Chinese island of Taiwan and other her possession including Diaoyutai and Spratley and SCS islet

It just boggle the mind to call China the agressor China didn't enter the war when Mc arthur violated the North Korean by crossing the border at 48th paralled. It was not until McArthur strife and bomb Dandong at the border and promise Chiang Kai Shek to help him return to power in China by threatening to cross the Yalu river that China start to act. After repeated warning not to cross the Yalu river. Which went unheeded out of hubris. Eventually resulting in the longest retreat in the history of US marine, Only overwhelming fire power and huge imbalance in air power rescue the doomed marine

If it is not for Mao impatience attacking seoul against the advice of then Chief commander of Volunteer army PengTehuai, China could have won the war. After driving the US down from 48th paralled Peng advice to consolidate and resupply the troop due to the primitive conditon of Chinese logistic back then But Mao insists of driving to Seoul which end up in disaster!

Any attempt to cross the Yalu river will be consider as Invasion does not really matter who he is Mc Arthur or Hideyoshi the Chinese response has been the same thru history counter attack! Because it endanger the Chinese heartland of Beijing and Tianjin, Shandong peninsula

But the heroic volunteer army again save the day and beat back the repeated UN onslaught at Sangangling finally convince the war lord that Korean war is unwinnable forcing the then American commander to say he does not relish the first US general to enter the war and not ending it

China achieve the result with great sacrifice and bought her 60n years of peace allowing her to concentrate on building economy and lift hundred million out of poverty It is sacrifice worth making!
But dark cloud is now with us again I guess the passage of time make people forget the advice of McArthur never to make land war or Sea war in Asia

When friend come I will treat him with wine but if wolves invade I will greet him with gunfire!

60 year latter the sacrifice is not in vain

Thanks my friend. The sacrifice amd hard graft then in Korea and recently in Wuhan. With all the ups and downs in between has made it all worthwhile.

TerraN_EmpirE · Oct 4, 2020

Hendrik_2000 said:
when Mc arthur violated the North Korean by crossing the border at 48th paralled.

You mean after the North Crossed it and invaded the South right?

The Idea that any army would just stop at a line that it’s self was less an agreed boarder and more a line of demarcation is only a modern concept.
The US and UN had communication by proxy, though India leaving questions as to what was getting through making it worse was McArthurs command style that was notoriously full of Yes men. Yet the actual orders didn’t come from Tokyo but Truman. Who based on the input he was getting gathered the idea that China was sitting it out.

solarz · Oct 4, 2020

Max Demian said:
I am merely stating the historical facts. It doesn’t matter what I think. The PRC government attacked the UN forces in Korea and was officially condemned by the UN as an aggressor.

You mean the same UN where the Nationalists were representing China and the USSR was boycotting for that fact?

A UN missing the legitimate representatives of 1/4 of the world's population has zero legitimacy.

Gatekeeper · Oct 5, 2020

TerraN_EmpirE said:
You mean after the North Crossed it and invaded the South right?

I don't think anyone of us is disputing who crosses the line first. Although one could argue who started all this first.

What we are questioning is the poster made it sound as though it was China being belligerent. When in fact China was reacting to event that MacArthur crossed over and pushed up to the Chinese border, thus threatening China's own security.

Just like the first gulf war. The mandate was remove Iraqi forces from Kuwait. No more! So the allies stopped going further. I'm not sure what the mandate is for the Korean war. Is he supposed to stop once he evicted the North from the south?

In any case, the US had plenty if warning to stop as China was feeling very threatened.

TerraN_EmpirE said:
The US and UN had communication by proxy, though India leaving questions as to what was getting through making it worse was McArthurs command style that was notoriously full of Yes men. Yet the actual orders didn’t come from Tokyo but Truman. Who based on the input he was getting gathered the idea that China was sitting it out.

Not sure what you're trying to say? Are you saying the order to march on comes straight from the top? And what the Indians got anything to do with It? And MacArthur style full of yes man?

Korean War 70 years later Win Lose and A draw

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