JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 News, Discussion & Media

planeman

Senior Member
VIP Professional
The thing about the R-Darter is that it is blatantly based on the Israeli Derby. No doubt about that. Wouldn't Pakistan have political(/religious) objections to purchasing it - serious question. Not that it stopped them buying various versions of the PL-8/9 family.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
The article suggests that the PRC might offer a different aircraft. However I think if Pakistan really wanted to, they could obtain jet engines from other sources.

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Oct. 30, 2006

Russia Chooses Between $1.5 Billion and $2 Billion
Will Russia Honor Its Military-Technology Deals with China or with India?

China has appealed to Russia to include Pakistan in the list of countries with which Moscow has military-technological trade partnerships. Otherwise, China cannot fulfill its contract for the delivery to Pakistan of FC-1 fighter planes with Russian engines. If Russia refuses, it could complicate trade relations with China, which bring in $2 billion annually. Agreement, however, could threaten Russia's ties with India, which are worth more than $1.5 billion per year.
This week an official Chinese delegation will arrive in Moscow for negotiations. According to information obtained by Kommersant, the Chinese representatives will insist that Pakistan be included in the list of countries with which Russia has agreed to conduct military-technological trade. Otherwise, Beijing will have to default on its contract to deliver FC-1 fighter jets to Pakistan. According to the existing contract with Beijing, Russia has agreed to outfit Chinese fighter jets with Russian engines. Unfortunately for Beijing, however, according to an addendum to the contract, China does not have the right to re-export planes with Russian engines to a third country.

The FC-1 (also known as the Super-7), the first Chinese multifunction fighter jet, is oriented towards the international market. Chengdu Aircraft Industry began the development of the plane in the early 1990s. Around 50% of the costs ($75 million) were carried by Pakistan. China's National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation, Pakistan's Aviation Integrated Company, Israel's IAI, and Russia's OKB-Mikoyan Engineering Center all took part in the project. The FC-1 made its first flight in August 2003.

China signed an agreement with Pakistan to deliver 150 FC-1 jets under the name JF-17 Thunder. But it was impossible to get the Russian engines for them. "Pakistan is not included in the list of countries with whom Russia has military-technological trade, meaning that the re-export of Russian military goods to Pakistan is not possible," said the Russian military producer Rosoboronexport. The Federal Military-Technology Trade Service confirmed to Kommersant that it does not intend to include Pakistan. Including Pakistan could harm relations with India, with which Russia has signed an agreement not to deliver military technology to Islamabad. The trade in military technology between Russia and India is worth more than $1.5 billion annually. The MiG corporation has also won a tender from the Indian government to deliver 126 fighter jets for a sum of $6.5 billion.

However, Beijing could also bring its weight to bear on Russia in terms of future contracts: talks are being held concerning Su-33 fighters (up to 48 planes for up to $2.5 billion), 15 Be-200 amphibious planes with "Sea Snake" targeting systems ($400 million), almost 40 Ka-29 transport helicopters and more than 20 Ka-31 helicopters (around $200 million), and four Zubr ("Bison") hydroplane boats (around $210 million).

The terms of the contract signed by Rosoboronexport and China in 2005 for the delivery of 100 RD-93 engines for FC-1 fighters, along with parts and service, for $267 million is also under strain for a different reason. Russia was supposed to deliver 15 engines by September, but only ten have been delivered so far: the Chinese have refused to accept the remaining five because of technical problems, and delivery has now been pushed back to December. China is additionally suggesting that that RD-93 be modernized and its thrust increased from 8.3 to 9 tons in order to pump up the tactical-technical specifications of the FC-1. Rosoboronexport has yet to make a decision, since the modified RD-93 has not been completely developed yet in Russia.

Experts in the field believe that China will not succeed in winning a concession from Russia on the question of re-export and that it will have to seek a compromise with Pakistan. "Russia will never give China the right to re-export its military technology to Pakistan, since that would threaten [Russia's] multibillion dollar contracts with India," believes Russia/CIS Observer editor Maksim Pyadushkin. "However, Beijing will never drop the FC-1 program. The most important thing for the Chinese now is to get RD-93 engines that they can take apart and copy in the future, like they do with everything in China." In the opinion of experts, Beijing will most likely offer Islamabad either another plane or, if worst comes to worse, return its money for the development of the FC-1.


Ivan Safronov, Alexandra Gritskova, and Konstantin Lantratov

too late, what else could they get at this point that would actually fit into JF-17? Just wait for WS-13. It will be ready by 2009. The Russians seriously overestimate themselves.

But in the end, I simply believe that the people writing this have no idea what they are talking about. Mig winning a contract for 126 from India? When?
 

maglomanic

Junior Member
The thing about the R-Darter is that it is blatantly based on the Israeli Derby. No doubt about that. Wouldn't Pakistan have political(/religious) objections to purchasing it - serious question. Not that it stopped them buying various versions of the PL-8/9 family.

Religious/political objections???:confused:

I don't think so. If that was the case the wouldn't be dealing with entire world including USA. There is official policy of no diplomatic relationship with Israel but thats about it.There are quite a few poeple including the current head of state who has pushed the idea of closer relationship with Israel.

Anyway offtopic, sorry for the drift.
 

maglomanic

Junior Member
too late, what else could they get at this point that would actually fit into JF-17? Just wait for WS-13. It will be ready by 2009. The Russians seriously overestimate themselves.

But in the end, I simply believe that the people writing this have no idea what they are talking about. Mig winning a contract for 126 from India? When?


I have to agree with your assesment that these guys dont know what they r talking about.

P.S what is the latest on WS_13. There has been such long silence on this thing for so long.
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
too late, what else could they get at this point that would actually fit into JF-17? Just wait for WS-13. It will be ready by 2009. The Russians seriously overestimate themselves.

But in the end, I simply believe that the people writing this have no idea what they are talking about. Mig winning a contract for 126 from India? When?

Yes I posted this on another forum and the most relevant bit is the chinese
asking for the specs of the RD-93 to be improved.

Would that make it equal to the WS-13 ?
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Yes I posted this on another forum and the most relevant bit is the chinese
asking for the specs of the RD-93 to be improved.

Would that make it equal to the WS-13 ?

The thing is that WS-13's core and technology used on it is suppose to be more advanced, but RD-93 has been around longer, so it's more mature. And they have improved it a bit. WS-13 right now when it comes out would not be as powerful as RD-93, but it should have more ground to advance.
 

challenge

Banned Idiot
The article suggests that the PRC might offer a different aircraft. However I think if Pakistan really wanted to, they could obtain jet engines from other sources.

=======================================

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Oct. 30, 2006

Russia Chooses Between $1.5 Billion and $2 Billion
Will Russia Honor Its Military-Technology Deals with China or with India?

China has appealed to Russia to include Pakistan in the list of countries with which Moscow has military-technological trade partnerships. Otherwise, China cannot fulfill its contract for the delivery to Pakistan of FC-1 fighter planes with Russian engines. If Russia refuses, it could complicate trade relations with China, which bring in $2 billion annually. Agreement, however, could threaten Russia's ties with India, which are worth more than $1.5 billion per year.
This week an official Chinese delegation will arrive in Moscow for negotiations. According to information obtained by Kommersant, the Chinese representatives will insist that Pakistan be included in the list of countries with which Russia has agreed to conduct military-technological trade. Otherwise, Beijing will have to default on its contract to deliver FC-1 fighter jets to Pakistan. According to the existing contract with Beijing, Russia has agreed to outfit Chinese fighter jets with Russian engines. Unfortunately for Beijing, however, according to an addendum to the contract, China does not have the right to re-export planes with Russian engines to a third country.

The FC-1 (also known as the Super-7), the first Chinese multifunction fighter jet, is oriented towards the international market. Chengdu Aircraft Industry began the development of the plane in the early 1990s. Around 50% of the costs ($75 million) were carried by Pakistan. China's National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation, Pakistan's Aviation Integrated Company, Israel's IAI, and Russia's OKB-Mikoyan Engineering Center all took part in the project. The FC-1 made its first flight in August 2003.

China signed an agreement with Pakistan to deliver 150 FC-1 jets under the name JF-17 Thunder. But it was impossible to get the Russian engines for them. "Pakistan is not included in the list of countries with whom Russia has military-technological trade, meaning that the re-export of Russian military goods to Pakistan is not possible," said the Russian military producer Rosoboronexport. The Federal Military-Technology Trade Service confirmed to Kommersant that it does not intend to include Pakistan. Including Pakistan could harm relations with India, with which Russia has signed an agreement not to deliver military technology to Islamabad. The trade in military technology between Russia and India is worth more than $1.5 billion annually. The MiG corporation has also won a tender from the Indian government to deliver 126 fighter jets for a sum of $6.5 billion.

However, Beijing could also bring its weight to bear on Russia in terms of future contracts: talks are being held concerning Su-33 fighters (up to 48 planes for up to $2.5 billion), 15 Be-200 amphibious planes with "Sea Snake" targeting systems ($400 million), almost 40 Ka-29 transport helicopters and more than 20 Ka-31 helicopters (around $200 million), and four Zubr ("Bison") hydroplane boats (around $210 million).

The terms of the contract signed by Rosoboronexport and China in 2005 for the delivery of 100 RD-93 engines for FC-1 fighters, along with parts and service, for $267 million is also under strain for a different reason. Russia was supposed to deliver 15 engines by September, but only ten have been delivered so far: the Chinese have refused to accept the remaining five because of technical problems, and delivery has now been pushed back to December. China is additionally suggesting that that RD-93 be modernized and its thrust increased from 8.3 to 9 tons in order to pump up the tactical-technical specifications of the FC-1. Rosoboronexport has yet to make a decision, since the modified RD-93 has not been completely developed yet in Russia.

Experts in the field believe that China will not succeed in winning a concession from Russia on the question of re-export and that it will have to seek a compromise with Pakistan. "Russia will never give China the right to re-export its military technology to Pakistan, since that would threaten [Russia's] multibillion dollar contracts with India," believes Russia/CIS Observer editor Maksim Pyadushkin. "However, Beijing will never drop the FC-1 program. The most important thing for the Chinese now is to get RD-93 engines that they can take apart and copy in the future, like they do with everything in China." In the opinion of experts, Beijing will most likely offer Islamabad either another plane or, if worst comes to worse, return its money for the development of the FC-1.


Ivan Safronov, Alexandra Gritskova, and Konstantin Lantratov

with the US "lifting" arm embargo against India,this make russia even more determine to hang on to Indian market.
the solution for pakistani F-17,was to look to alternative engine such F-404,european engine .will this l require complete redesignation of fuselage ?
 

faisal344

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Hi,

If russian's reject chinese appeal to include Pakistan in the list of countries with which Moscow has military-technological trade partnerships for RD-93 engine ? So which engine fulfill the requirement of JF-17.
 

ArsalanKhan

Just Hatched
Registered Member
This is another example where Pakistan government did not confirm the full details before developing this fighter or when ordering planes from Boeing. Pakistanis over optimistic of getting approval for RD-33 from Russia for JF-17. Pakistan also got 2 777-200LR from Boeing in order to fly non-stop to US and Canada. US refused direct flight after the planes were delivered. Now we have long range planes not being used and a fighter without a engine. :mad:
 

Aliph Ahmed

New Member
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This is another example where Pakistan government did not confirm the full details before developing this fighter or when ordering planes from Boeing. Pakistanis over optimistic of getting approval for RD-33 from Russia for JF-17. Pakistan also got 2 777-200LR from Boeing in order to fly non-stop to US and Canada. US refused direct flight after the planes were delivered. Now we have long range planes not being used and a fighter without a engine. :mad:

One shouldnt jump to conclusion and start blaming untill the matter is fully concluded. As for the Boeings, the contract was signed before the 9/11 safety measures were introduced.

Russia decides to supply Pakistan with fighter-aircraft engines

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