JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 News, Discussion & Media

maozedong

Banned Idiot
FC-1 suppose is good fighter like US F16.
but it is design for Pakistan airforce that limited for finance.
Pakistan needs large amount of these fighters,but they don't have money to buy.for this,FC-1 become light and cheap fighter,the max speed is 1.6M to 1.8M,slower then US F16,the max high limited is less then F16,and it is short range.
but CAC already do the best for Pakistan,some design learn from US F35,nice glass cockpit. it is modern and excellence fighter,fits mid or small country .
Pakistan will buy 150 FC-1 and 76 US F16.
all information and oppinion is from a chinese good magazine "Modern Weaponry".
[email protected]
my oppinion is so call " JF-17 Thunder ""Pakistan attend",the purpose is for get some western advence technical parts.
FC-1 install Itallian radar,it is very good radar.- information is from the magazine
FC-1 is a light fighter,I don't think it will be twin engine.
 

eecsmaster

Junior Member
did the Italians publish the specs for the Grifo yet? I heard that there were some changes from the Super Skyranger due to the enlargened nosecone.
 

maozedong

Banned Idiot
sorry, I did'nt know that, the magazine is in june,this year,this is all information I got.
I will check some more sources.
dose any body know more news about that?
 

Diving Falcon

Junior Member
The main advantage of the Grifo-series radar is that it would be easier for the PAF to integrate Western and South African origin weapon systems onto JF-17. For instance the PAF's Mirage ROSE Is operate the Grifo-M and are often reported to be capable of using R-Darter BVRAAM as well as the H-series precision-guided glide bombs. Assuming the PAF plans to continue using the T-Darter (improved R-Darter) as well as A-Darter, both of which have been offered to Pakistan in 1999, Grifo would ideally be the better option.

On the other hand, the Chinese radars have multi-engagement capablity and loaded with potentially effective Chinese counter- and ECM/EW innovations. So at the end of the day it would have to depend on who gives the better deal and the Pakistan's capability of integrating systems of very different technical backgrounds.

Thus far the first 50-80 JF-17s in PAF will be entirely Chinese with the exception of engine; WS-13 should enter service by 2012, and IMO PAF will retrofit all inducted JF-17s and equip future versions with that engine. Beyond that is anyone's guess because China's avionics development would have come a far way by then, while on the other hand PAF has negotiated with Britain and Turkey for avionics and ECM/EW systems, respectively.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
The main advantage of the Grifo-series radar is that it would be easier for the PAF to integrate Western and South African origin weapon systems onto JF-17. For instance the PAF's Mirage ROSE Is operate the Grifo-M and are often reported to be capable of using R-Darter BVRAAM as well as the H-series precision-guided glide bombs. Assuming the PAF plans to continue using the T-Darter (improved R-Darter) as well as A-Darter, both of which have been offered to Pakistan in 1999, Grifo would ideally be the better option.

On the other hand, the Chinese radars have multi-engagement capablity and loaded with potentially effective Chinese counter- and ECM/EW innovations. So at the end of the day it would have to depend on who gives the better deal and the Pakistan's capability of integrating systems of very different technical backgrounds.

Thus far the first 50-80 JF-17s in PAF will be entirely Chinese with the exception of engine; WS-13 should enter service by 2012, and IMO PAF will retrofit all inducted JF-17s and equip future versions with that engine. Beyond that is anyone's guess because China's avionics development would have come a far way by then, while on the other hand PAF has negotiated with Britain and Turkey for avionics and ECM/EW systems, respectively.

Are Pakistanis still talking about the Darter series? The South Africans are going to retire it along with the Cheetahs. I see the entire negotiation with Britain and Turkey as a method to get China to lower the price of its own avionics and offer more advanced version.
 

maglomanic

Junior Member
Are Pakistanis still talking about the Darter series? The South Africans are going to retire it along with the Cheetahs.
Yeah, i read that about R-darter too. I guess A-darter would be a different case since it has alot to do with Python-5, Israel's latest and greatest. Also, Pakistan was offered T-darter a version which was allegedly suprior to R-darter and had DL.

I see the entire negotiation with Britain and Turkey as a method to get China to lower the price of its own avionics and offer more advanced version.
I would doubt Pakistan China have that kind of relationship in which they try to take advantage of eachother. There have been so many deals specially that F-22 one that China hardly seems to be making any money out of Pakistan. Ofcourse there is no free lunch and China has strategic interests in Pakistan.
Also i think, atleast with Turkey Pakistan's relationship and co-operation is more deeper in technical areas and they might well be interested in what is on offer from Turks.
My 2 cents.
 

stimpy75

New Member
Registered Member
are you sure about the r-darter?i´ve read in the magazine "Military Technology" that denel has suspended the further developement of the r-darter and that they are instead purchasing the israeli derby missile for their Gripen fighters....
the A-darter is still under developement and brazil has joined in in developing the missile,paying 50 mil $ and the brazilian plan to induct the missile by ca. 2015
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Yeah, i read that about R-darter too. I guess A-darter would be a different case since it has alot to do with Python-5, Israel's latest and greatest. Also, Pakistan was offered T-darter a version which was allegedly suprior to R-darter and had DL.
To me, the entire thing about R-Darter comes as a way to get more negotiation leverage over China on the transfer of SD-10.
I would doubt Pakistan China have that kind of relationship in which they try to take advantage of eachother. There have been so many deals specially that F-22 one that China hardly seems to be making any money out of Pakistan. Ofcourse there is no free lunch and China has strategic interests in Pakistan.
Also i think, atleast with Turkey Pakistan's relationship and co-operation is more deeper in technical areas and they might well be interested in what is on offer from Turks.
My 2 cents.
not sure, but if there is negotiation ploys used between the Brits and Americans for JSF, there will be negotiations between China and Pakistan. If China knows Pakistan has better radar better, it will try to be more competitive too.
 

Sczepan

Senior Member
VIP Professional
new Specification source

new SPECIFICATIONS

Source:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


FC-1

Empty weight 6411KG
normal takeoff weight 9072KG
Maximum takeoff weight 12474KG
Maximum landing weight 7802KG
Internal fuel 2268KG
External payload 3629KG
Thrust ratio >=0.9
Max speed Mach 1.6
Max ceiling 15,240m
Ferry range 2,037kilometers
Takeoff ground roll 609meters
Landing ground roll 823meters
Length: 14.9679m
Span: 9.4646m
Height: 4.77485m

@ Source SDF (very good suspected):

Crew: One
Wingspan: 9.00 m
Length: 14 m
Height: 5.10 m
Weight: Empty 6,321 kg; Normal take-off: 9,100 kg; Max take-off 12,700 kg; Max weapon payload 3,800 kg
Maximum Weapon Load: 3,600 kg
Maximum Speed: Mach 1.6
Range: Ferry range 3,000 km; Operational Radius 1,352 km
Service Ceiling: 16,500 m
Maximum Climb Rate: N/A
+G Limit: 8.5
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
The article suggests that the PRC might offer a different aircraft. However I think if Pakistan really wanted to, they could obtain jet engines from other sources.

=======================================

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Oct. 30, 2006

Russia Chooses Between $1.5 Billion and $2 Billion
Will Russia Honor Its Military-Technology Deals with China or with India?

China has appealed to Russia to include Pakistan in the list of countries with which Moscow has military-technological trade partnerships. Otherwise, China cannot fulfill its contract for the delivery to Pakistan of FC-1 fighter planes with Russian engines. If Russia refuses, it could complicate trade relations with China, which bring in $2 billion annually. Agreement, however, could threaten Russia's ties with India, which are worth more than $1.5 billion per year.
This week an official Chinese delegation will arrive in Moscow for negotiations. According to information obtained by Kommersant, the Chinese representatives will insist that Pakistan be included in the list of countries with which Russia has agreed to conduct military-technological trade. Otherwise, Beijing will have to default on its contract to deliver FC-1 fighter jets to Pakistan. According to the existing contract with Beijing, Russia has agreed to outfit Chinese fighter jets with Russian engines. Unfortunately for Beijing, however, according to an addendum to the contract, China does not have the right to re-export planes with Russian engines to a third country.

The FC-1 (also known as the Super-7), the first Chinese multifunction fighter jet, is oriented towards the international market. Chengdu Aircraft Industry began the development of the plane in the early 1990s. Around 50% of the costs ($75 million) were carried by Pakistan. China's National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation, Pakistan's Aviation Integrated Company, Israel's IAI, and Russia's OKB-Mikoyan Engineering Center all took part in the project. The FC-1 made its first flight in August 2003.

China signed an agreement with Pakistan to deliver 150 FC-1 jets under the name JF-17 Thunder. But it was impossible to get the Russian engines for them. "Pakistan is not included in the list of countries with whom Russia has military-technological trade, meaning that the re-export of Russian military goods to Pakistan is not possible," said the Russian military producer Rosoboronexport. The Federal Military-Technology Trade Service confirmed to Kommersant that it does not intend to include Pakistan. Including Pakistan could harm relations with India, with which Russia has signed an agreement not to deliver military technology to Islamabad. The trade in military technology between Russia and India is worth more than $1.5 billion annually. The MiG corporation has also won a tender from the Indian government to deliver 126 fighter jets for a sum of $6.5 billion.

However, Beijing could also bring its weight to bear on Russia in terms of future contracts: talks are being held concerning Su-33 fighters (up to 48 planes for up to $2.5 billion), 15 Be-200 amphibious planes with "Sea Snake" targeting systems ($400 million), almost 40 Ka-29 transport helicopters and more than 20 Ka-31 helicopters (around $200 million), and four Zubr ("Bison") hydroplane boats (around $210 million).

The terms of the contract signed by Rosoboronexport and China in 2005 for the delivery of 100 RD-93 engines for FC-1 fighters, along with parts and service, for $267 million is also under strain for a different reason. Russia was supposed to deliver 15 engines by September, but only ten have been delivered so far: the Chinese have refused to accept the remaining five because of technical problems, and delivery has now been pushed back to December. China is additionally suggesting that that RD-93 be modernized and its thrust increased from 8.3 to 9 tons in order to pump up the tactical-technical specifications of the FC-1. Rosoboronexport has yet to make a decision, since the modified RD-93 has not been completely developed yet in Russia.

Experts in the field believe that China will not succeed in winning a concession from Russia on the question of re-export and that it will have to seek a compromise with Pakistan. "Russia will never give China the right to re-export its military technology to Pakistan, since that would threaten [Russia's] multibillion dollar contracts with India," believes Russia/CIS Observer editor Maksim Pyadushkin. "However, Beijing will never drop the FC-1 program. The most important thing for the Chinese now is to get RD-93 engines that they can take apart and copy in the future, like they do with everything in China." In the opinion of experts, Beijing will most likely offer Islamabad either another plane or, if worst comes to worse, return its money for the development of the FC-1.


Ivan Safronov, Alexandra Gritskova, and Konstantin Lantratov
 
Top