JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[Semi-Lobster]

I’d worry more about the US blocking it through CAATSA via Russian engines. Chances of Argentina risking CAATSA to purchase a Russian fighter is slim. Should the Russians block the engine export, they’d not only lose the engine money but sour relations with China.

Pakistan IIRC (I'm sure somebody else in this thread can confirm it) got around CAATSA by the RD-93 engine not coming 'directly' from Russia. It really depends on how badly a US administration would want to pursue and punish an 'intransigent' South American country. For example I do not think Peru ever retroactively was cited under CAATSA even with their fleet of MiG-29S because they were bought from Belarus rather than Russia even though many parts and supplies for these aircraft would have had to come from the Russian Federation at some point.

What makes you think the US wouldn't expand CAATSA to Chinese weapons if they gained significant market share?
Remember what happened when FD-2000 won the competition in Turkey several years ago.

There are many companies that are intertwined with the Chinese military supply system, most American and allied, that inevitably link back to China which makes things more difficult in trying to expand CAATSA. That's not to say they haven't included sanctions on Chinese entities from their relationship with Russia though. The Chinese Equipment Development Department of the Central Military Commission and its director were sanctions by the US in 2018 for example.

Argentina would be a big step for China though, no country in the Western Hemisphere has ever purchased advanced Chinese weapons systems before and this could break the ice. From what I've read many Latin American countries are not happy with their Kfirs they purchased for example, they were sold as a light weight, inexpensive aircraft but the supposed return to 'near zero flight hour airframes' was definitely over sold, the JF-17 might have a place in more budget oriented air forces.

 

[Atomicfrog]

Any chance the Russians would withhold the sales of RD-93 engines (to the JF-17) should the Mig-35 lose the bid, similar to what the Ukrainians did when the T-84 lost the bid to the VT-2 tanks for the Peruvian Army?

Maybe they will use ws13 for Argentina?

 

[SpicySichuan]

Maybe they will use ws13 for Argentina?

I have not seen WS13 integrated onto JF-17, only the FC-31 third model.

 

[FishWings]

Any chance the Russians would withhold the sales of RD-93 engines (to the JF-17) should the Mig-35 lose the bid, similar to what the Ukrainians did when the T-84 lost the bid to the VT-2 tanks for the Peruvian Army?

I thought an alternative engine of roughly equal (or slightly greater) performance was developed, precisely for this case?

 

[FishWings]

Argentina would be a big step for China though, no country in the Western Hemisphere has ever purchased advanced Chinese weapons systems before and this could break the ice. From what I've read many Latin American countries are not happy with their Kfirs they purchased for example, they were sold as a light weight, inexpensive aircraft but the supposed return to 'near zero flight hour airframes' was definitely over sold, the JF-17 might have a place in more budget oriented air forces.

True, and in fact I think the only 'large' customer in the region is in recent years is so far only Venezuela. If they were in a better economic position, I am sure the JF-17 Block 3 would be seriously considered as a replacement for their outdated F-16A/Bs, which are almost completely toothless considering they lack even the basic AIM-7 BVRAAM, much less a modern Fox Three missile. The JF-17 Block 3 would potentially give their air force a generation's leap in terms of capability, considering its modern avionics, low operational costs, and a world-class (if not world-beating) set of A2A weapons that I am pretty sure the US is still spooked about (along with the bonus of being capable for A2G missions and also for the anti-shipping role).

 

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Nope Turkey suspended it after major complaints from NATO.

And Turkey ended up getting S-300s as a result? How ironic.

 

[siegecrossbow]

And Turkey ended up getting S-300s as a result? How ironic.

You meant S-400 right? That happened after Obama tried to launch a coup against Erdogan.

 

[j17wang]

Pakistan IIRC (I'm sure somebody else in this thread can confirm it) got around CAATSA by the RD-93 engine not coming 'directly' from Russia. It really depends on how badly a US administration would want to pursue and punish an 'intransigent' South American country. For example I do not think Peru ever retroactively was cited under CAATSA even with their fleet of MiG-29S because they were bought from Belarus rather than Russia even though many parts and supplies for these aircraft would have had to come from the Russian Federation at some point.

There are many companies that are intertwined with the Chinese military supply system, most American and allied, that inevitably link back to China which makes things more difficult in trying to expand CAATSA. That's not to say they haven't included sanctions on Chinese entities from their relationship with Russia though. The Chinese Equipment Development Department of the Central Military Commission and its director were sanctions by the US in 2018 for example.

Argentina would be a big step for China though, no country in the Western Hemisphere has ever purchased advanced Chinese weapons systems before and this could break the ice. From what I've read many Latin American countries are not happy with their Kfirs they purchased for example, they were sold as a light weight, inexpensive aircraft but the supposed return to 'near zero flight hour airframes' was definitely over sold, the JF-17 might have a place in more budget oriented air forces.

IMHO, this is a sale China must do through Pakistan. Lets face it, the sale of a few fighters is not gonna really enrich a country with the economy of china, but this could be a ringing endorsement for the Pakistani defense industry, which would become a crucial element to further sales of chinese developed systems across the world. I would love to see the US try CAATSA on Pakistan, its already walking on very thin grounds for its repeated violations of pakistani sovereignty and killing of innocent civilians in indiscriminate drone strikes. Also, I would push for exports of JF-17 and later models through pakistan to key countries like Turkey/Egypt. Every jet sold by our russian or pakistani brothers is one less sale available to boeing/lockheed martin or one of thier partners. America must not be allowed even one extra penny to continue its murderous killings of latinos, muslims, africans, or asians, whether by cops inside the country, or drone strike outside its hegemony.

 

[voyager1]

IMHO, this is a sale China must do through Pakistan. Lets face it, the sale of a few fighters is not gonna really enrich a country with the economy of china, but this could be a ringing endorsement for the Pakistani defense industry, which would become a crucial element to further sales of chinese developed systems across the world. I would love to see the US try CAATSA on Pakistan, its already walking on very thin grounds for its repeated violations of pakistani sovereignty and killing of innocent civilians in indiscriminate drone strikes. Also, I would push for exports of JF-17 and later models through pakistan to key countries like Turkey/Egypt. Every jet sold by our russian or pakistani brothers is one less sale available to boeing/lockheed martin or one of thier partners. America must not be allowed even one extra penny to continue its murderous killings of latinos, muslims, africans, or asians, whether by cops inside the country, or drone strike outside its hegemony.

Why should China gift this opportunity to Pakistan?

don't forget that this deal will draw Argentine closer to China's orbit. More technological, more diplomatic, more military cooperation. Build trust between the two countries armies.

Make their elites see China as not just a sweatshop factory, convince their civilians of the same

There are a lot of benefits for China itself to make the deal

 

[Mohsin77]

The opportunity for us is in strengthening the JF-17's supply chains and lowering costs, which would arise with more batch orders internationally. The more friendly nations that are flying this bird, the easier it will be to support going forward. That's good enough for Pakistan. The geopolitical advantages of upending the Monroe Doctrine aren't relevant for us (at least not in this century lolz.)