JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread


Mt1701d

Junior Member
Registered Member
Doesn't Russia supply the RD-33 engines though? I doubt they would be willing to sell such items to Ukraine given the geopolitical climate
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

According this archived page of Jane’s the JF 17 uses the RD 93, but also can be configured with the WS 13, so it can go completely without Russian engines, but don’t know if it’s the case since higher end engine development in China had been kind of stuck in limbo for a while.

If anyone has more updated info, please correct me if there are inaccuracies.
 

shabi1

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Will China risk souring its relationship with Russia for a paltry jet sale to Ukraine? Don't forget JF-17's engines comes from either Russia (which is currently butting heads with Ukraine) or China, which has some interest in the Ukrainian military-industrial complex but also has a good relationship with Russia. For the Russians, it's one thing if China buys stuff from Ukraine for its own use, but it's another thing for China to sell stuff to Ukraine that it very likely will decide to use against Russia. If Pakistan decided to support the sale, I doubt their Chinese partner will be as enthusiastic.

For the sale to succeed smoothly, at the very least Pakistan/Ukraine needs to develop a replacement engine for the current Chinese one just in case China decided to retract its support after the sale under Russian pressure, provided if it even agreed in the first place. Russian engine is out of the equation just based on its current geopolitical situation with Ukraine.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Ukraine and China have good trade relations and China is investing in their industries. I don't think there will be any hurdles for Ukraine if it want's JF-17s, it can place the order with Pakistan and get WS-13 equipped jets. Same way order for Myanmar was placed with China as it could have caused problems for Pakistan because of domestic political backlash.

However I think next export orders could be from Azerbaijan and possibly Egypt if it still has money left over from it's buying spree.
 

dankris

Junior Member
Registered Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Ukraine and China have good trade relations and China is investing in their industries. I don't think there will be any hurdles for Ukraine if it want's JF-17s, it can place the order with Pakistan and get WS-13 equipped jets. Same way order for Myanmar was placed with China as it could have caused problems for Pakistan because of domestic political backlash.

However I think next export orders could be from Azerbaijan and possibly Egypt if it still has money left over from it's buying spree.
Just curious, what's the political backlash that Myanmar's order might cause to Pakistan?

Also, yes China is investing in Ukrainian industries, but it's China buying stuff for its own use. Selling Ukraine stuff that it will use against Russia when Russia is one of China's biggest geopolitical ally is another matter. To be blunt, IMO in the big picture, Pakistan doesn't have as much sway as Russia, at least in terms of politics, so China can risk offending Pakistan on this one. I also don't think Myanmar is at war/is going to war with Pakistan, while Ukraine is practically in a war with Russia in everything but name. That changes the equation quite a bit.

In simple terms, China and Pakistan/Myanmar are like a big brother with two quarreling little brothers. The little ones might quarrel, but when the big brother decides something, they have to listen and accept it. China's relationship with Ukraine and Russia, on the other hand, is like two big brothers with a little brother. The little guy (Ukraine) is being bullied by one of the big guys (Russia), so it seeks help from another big guy (China). The problem is, those two big guys have a reasonably amicable relationship, so would China risk alienating a big guy for a little brother? I don't think so.
 

j17wang

New Member
Registered Member
Just curious, what's the political backlash that Myanmar's order might cause to Pakistan?

Also, yes China is investing in Ukrainian industries, but it's China buying stuff for its own use. Selling Ukraine stuff that it will use against Russia when Russia is one of China's biggest geopolitical ally is another matter. To be blunt, IMO in the big picture, Pakistan doesn't have as much sway as Russia, at least in terms of politics, so China can risk offending Pakistan on this one. I also don't think Myanmar is at war/is going to war with Pakistan, while Ukraine is practically in a war with Russia in everything but name. That changes the equation quite a bit.

In simple terms, China and Pakistan/Myanmar are like a big brother with two quarreling little brothers. The little ones might quarrel, but when the big brother decides something, they have to listen and accept it. China's relationship with Ukraine and Russia, on the other hand, is like two big brothers with a little brother. The little guy (Ukraine) is being bullied by one of the big guys (Russia), so it seeks help from another big guy (China). The problem is, those two big guys have a reasonably amicable relationship, so would China risk alienating a big guy for a little brother? I don't think so.
Russia and China may have to work creatively on this. If Ukraine is a determined buyer, its
Just curious, what's the political backlash that Myanmar's order might cause to Pakistan?

Also, yes China is investing in Ukrainian industries, but it's China buying stuff for its own use. Selling Ukraine stuff that it will use against Russia when Russia is one of China's biggest geopolitical ally is another matter. To be blunt, IMO in the big picture, Pakistan doesn't have as much sway as Russia, at least in terms of politics, so China can risk offending Pakistan on this one. I also don't think Myanmar is at war/is going to war with Pakistan, while Ukraine is practically in a war with Russia in everything but name. That changes the equation quite a bit.

In simple terms, China and Pakistan/Myanmar are like a big brother with two quarreling little brothers. The little ones might quarrel, but when the big brother decides something, they have to listen and accept it. China's relationship with Ukraine and Russia, on the other hand, is like two big brothers with a little brother. The little guy (Ukraine) is being bullied by one of the big guys (Russia), so it seeks help from another big guy (China). The problem is, those two big guys have a reasonably amicable relationship, so would China risk alienating a big guy for a little brother? I don't think so.
Russia is probably evaluating whether its better for Ukraine to buy its fighter jets from China/Pakistan or the West. Ultimately, Russia's endgame is still to prevent Ukraine from becoming a full member of EU/NATO, and a Ukraine which uses mostly western aircraft and has more integrated western military cooperation is the worse outcome. A sale to Ukraine may be possible if it receives certain "pre-clearance" from Russia. Keep in mind the JF-17 is an affordable and capable platform, but would not change the outcome of a full blown conflict as Russia and China still have other far superior fighters.

Providing pre-clearance/transparency to Russia would be akin to advanced notifications the US provides to Israel prior to sales of fighter jets to various Arab nations. Agree this sale should be lead by Pakistan though as it would be more material to develop their aviation industry, and at the same time reduce any profits/association of the deal with China to avoid embarrassment to the Russians.
 

Mt1701d

Junior Member
Registered Member
Just curious, what's the political backlash that Myanmar's order might cause to Pakistan?

Also, yes China is investing in Ukrainian industries, but it's China buying stuff for its own use. Selling Ukraine stuff that it will use against Russia when Russia is one of China's biggest geopolitical ally is another matter. To be blunt, IMO in the big picture, Pakistan doesn't have as much sway as Russia, at least in terms of politics, so China can risk offending Pakistan on this one. I also don't think Myanmar is at war/is going to war with Pakistan, while Ukraine is practically in a war with Russia in everything but name. That changes the equation quite a bit.

In simple terms, China and Pakistan/Myanmar are like a big brother with two quarreling little brothers. The little ones might quarrel, but when the big brother decides something, they have to listen and accept it. China's relationship with Ukraine and Russia, on the other hand, is like two big brothers with a little brother. The little guy (Ukraine) is being bullied by one of the big guys (Russia), so it seeks help from another big guy (China). The problem is, those two big guys have a reasonably amicable relationship, so would China risk alienating a big guy for a little brother? I don't think so.
I think I am repeating myself a little but I think it’s worth an examination in full.

I don’t think Russia will give too much of a Sh** for the following reasons:
1, JF 17 is an ok/good fighter for the money, but not state of the art. It is a match at best to older stuff the Russians would be fielding, except for maybe the AESA radar.
2, China will have all specs for the fighters, capabilities and limitations and most likely Russians will know it all, very thoroughly.
3, as the article describes Ukraine is cash strapped meaning that the likelihood of them doing major mods to the fighter is basically non existent, the military threat to Russia is minimal at best.
4, in terms of geopolitics Russia would want Ukraine being dependent on China than they would want Ukraine dependent and moving toward the West, tho at the moment Ukraine can’t afford it. If Ukraine buy Chinese, the West would be very wary of selling any hardware to Ukraine for fears of exposing their tech and possible reverse engineering. We should remember the aircraft carrier incident here too.

I think there is an argument to be had that Russia might even encourage China to sell the fighter to Ukraine, it would limit Ukraine’s military and political options at least until Ukraine’s economy is back on its feet, which let’s be honest here it would take a while.
During this time a Ukraine that is in China’s pocket would get no good will from the West and might in the long run bring it back into the sphere of influence of Russia, after China has extracted all that it wants.
Using your big brother, little brother analogy. The big brothers would be at the corner huddled up discussing, if an agreement is make, one big brother (Russia) will turn around, have a big smile with arms folded behind his back eyeing little brother (Ukraine), whilst the other big brother (China) will have a big smile walking to the little brother with shifty eye, both knowing that no matter what, the little brother have little options but to listen to them.
 

Figaro

Junior Member
Registered Member
Just curious, what's the political backlash that Myanmar's order might cause to Pakistan?

Also, yes China is investing in Ukrainian industries, but it's China buying stuff for its own use. Selling Ukraine stuff that it will use against Russia when Russia is one of China's biggest geopolitical ally is another matter. To be blunt, IMO in the big picture, Pakistan doesn't have as much sway as Russia, at least in terms of politics, so China can risk offending Pakistan on this one. I also don't think Myanmar is at war/is going to war with Pakistan, while Ukraine is practically in a war with Russia in everything but name. That changes the equation quite a bit.

In simple terms, China and Pakistan/Myanmar are like a big brother with two quarreling little brothers. The little ones might quarrel, but when the big brother decides something, they have to listen and accept it. China's relationship with Ukraine and Russia, on the other hand, is like two big brothers with a little brother. The little guy (Ukraine) is being bullied by one of the big guys (Russia), so it seeks help from another big guy (China). The problem is, those two big guys have a reasonably amicable relationship, so would China risk alienating a big guy for a little brother? I don't think so.
Why does Pakistan care about Myanmar? It's not like their relations are strained or anything ...
 

Top