JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[ougoah]

Design philosophy would also come into it.

Americans have traditionally enjoyed overpowered engines, as such, their designers do not place as much emphasis on energy retention, since their engines can replace lost energy as fast as the plane can bleed it.

That is why the F16 is so good at sustained turns at medium to low airspeeds.

The Chinese OTOH have historically suffered from the Achilles’ heel of poor engine power, which consequently meant their designers made energy retention an absolute priority. This meant that Chinese designes are more suited to higher speed slash and dash tactics, with high instantaneous turn rates for turning fights.

The JF17 is a bit of an anomaly in that while it was designed by China, it was made to PAF specs.

The design evolution from FC1 to JF17 is a good illustration of the different design preferences, with the bulk of the design changes from FC1 to JF17 focused largely on improving sustained turn rates, but it still retained much of the Chinese design influence focused on retaining energy.

With a more powerful engine, the JF17 could probably get closer and maybe even exceed the F16 in some to most flight regimes, but such an engine is still some way off from being available. And until it gets such a powerplant, it will continue to fall short of its full potential.

That may be partly why the BLK3 production has been pushed back.

Do you think it is pushed back to align with WS-19 finalisation? Not sure if there's another suitable engine. Certainly the WS-13 is not much better than a standard RD-33 variant, if at all.

Pushing it back for a better engine only makes sense if there's no immediate need for it. This is arguably not the case given IAF's pretty clear advantages over PAF, but even if it were so, bringing about all the electronic and avionic upgrades is surely more useful than a bit more thrust. Particularly if BLK 3 can shoot PL-15 and PL-10. I would imagine any delay to BLK 3 is due to certain subsystems (not limited to WS-19) still being evaluated at the moment, if they are ready.

 

[plawolf]

Do you think it is pushed back to align with WS-19 finalisation? Not sure if there's another suitable engine. Certainly the WS-13 is not much better than a standard RD-33 variant, if at all.

Pushing it back for a better engine only makes sense if there's no immediate need for it. This is arguably not the case given IAF's pretty clear advantages over PAF, but even if it were so, bringing about all the electronic and avionic upgrades is surely more useful than a bit more thrust. Particularly if BLK 3 can shoot PL-15 and PL-10. I would imagine any delay to BLK 3 is due to certain subsystems (not limited to WS-19) still being evaluated at the moment, if they are ready.

Depends on how big of an improvement a better engine would bring to performance.

If the PAF is serious about wanting all their JF17s at the same standard; and if maximising fleet combat power to counter the IAF is also a pressing concern, it would actually make sense to suspend BLK3 production in favour of MLU of the existing fleet to bring them up to BLK3 standard in terms of radar and avoinics.

PAC can probably upgrade all existing JF17s in a year or two, compare that to at most a sequadron of brand new BLK3 that can be built in the same time.

Although even with a couple years delay, I’m not sure the WS19 would be available in time. And even then, it might be a significant redesign to incorporate the new engine, which might not be easy to roll back on existing blk1 and 2 units.

I do have an outside the box crazy theory the PAF might be interested in having a WS13 TVC variant instead.

The WS13 should be close enough to the RD93 to allow easy retrofitting without needing many if any structural redesigns.

The J10TVC performance was quite a revelation, and with how closely the PAF works with CAC, they might have known about the project and been treated to more classified information, and maybe some early previews.

With TVC, a JF17 could easily out fly the F16 even without a significant increase in engine power.

I think a BLK3 with AESA, IFR and TVC would make a hell of a bird. The only obvious thing missing would be IRST, but even that could easily be added if there is budget for it. And if that was added, the JF17 BLK3 would pretty much be up to 4th gen + standard.

 

[enroger]

IMO, jf-17 is pretty good at sustained turn since the design is optimized for it keeping the under-powered engine in mind. This is my qualitative analysis by eyeballing it, having seen the plane's performance in ZhuHai first hand as well (yes I know airshow 1/3 fuel load etc.... but still)

There are two things that contributes to sustained turn rate:

1, High lift to drag ratio at given g-load. This requires a steep Lift vs AoA curve (ideally small increase in AoA, large increase in lift. as high AoA incur a lot of drag). This requires wing with smaller sweep angle (observe Jf-17 has very similar main wing as F-16). Also The prominent LERX also serves to provide strong vortex at moderate AoA (I recall seeing crisp clear vortex from the bird in ZhuHai at below 10-15 degree AoA by my estimation, not sure whats the g-load at the time, but Paf pilots are tough bois so I imagine something like 7g). While vortex generation creates drag, it induces a lot more lift at the main wing so overall L/D benefits.

2, TWR obviously. Jf-17 is underpowered in this regard.

My impression is that Paf love their F-16 so much they asked CAC to make a mini-cheap version of it, aerodynamically they are very similar.

 

[SinoSoldier]

According to Alan Warnes (I'd rate him a quite credible source), the Egyptian Air Force is reviewing the JF-17 Block III program.

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5th December 2018 - 16:50 GMT | by Alan Warnes in Cairo
The Egyptian Air Force (EAF) is currently reviewing the progress of the PAC/Chengdu JF-17 Thunder.
At EDEX 2018 in Cairo, Shephard has learnt that representatives from the EAF held a meeting with AVIC officials at Zhuhai Air Show in early November.
Officials were provided with a progress ...

The rest of the article is behind a paywall.

====

On a separate note, Huitong (and a few other sources) are claiming that the Azerbaijan Air Force is in the final stages of signing a contract for the JF-17 Block II+. The Block II+ is of the basic Block II configuration but with a retrofitted AESA radar. This was first reported by Azerbaijani media during the IDEAS 2018 exhibition in Karachi, Pakistan. The final configuration of the aircraft is reported to be settled.

阿塞拜疆媒体从巴基斯坦防务展(IDEAS 2018)发回报道称阿塞拜疆与巴基斯坦之间就阿塞拜疆采购JF-17枭龙战机的谈判已到“最后阶段”。
报道指出，向阿出口JF-17 Block II战机所有遗留的问题已经解决，阿塞拜疆JF-17 Block II的最终构型和配置的确认工作已经完成。报道同时称这批JF-17 Block II将有可能配备主动相控阵(AESA)雷达。

Link:

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====

Personal comments:

The EAF will be facing a massive logistics problem if this is true, given the fact that they operate aircraft from at least four different countries: F-16s from the US, MiG-35s from Russia, Rafales from France, and potentially JF-17 Block IIIs from China/Pakistan. However, the Block III will add substantial capability gains to the EAF as it transitions to an AESA-dominated fleet of high-end 4+ generation fighter platforms.

 

[ougoah]

According to Alan Warnes (I'd rate him a quite credible source), the Egyptian Air Force is reviewing the JF-17 Block III program.


The rest of the article is behind a paywall.

====

On a separate note, Huitong (and a few other sources) are claiming that the Azerbaijan Air Force is in the final stages of signing a contract for the JF-17 Block II+. The Block II+ is of the basic Block II configuration but with a retrofitted AESA radar. This was first reported by Azerbaijani media during the IDEAS 2018 exhibition in Karachi, Pakistan. The final configuration of the aircraft is reported to be settled.

Link:

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====

Personal comments:

The EAF will be facing a massive logistics problem if this is true, given the fact that they operate aircraft from at least four different countries: F-16s from the US, MiG-35s from Russia, Rafales from France, and potentially JF-17 Block IIIs from China/Pakistan. However, the Block III will add substantial capability gains to the EAF as it transitions to an AESA-dominated fleet of high-end 4+ generation fighter platforms.

That's totally nonsensical and irresponsible spending for a relatively poor nation with no serious threat to its sovereignty or interests. All these fighters have areas where they overlap. Even the USAF only just keeps four separate air-superiority and multirole fighter platforms now with the introduction of the F-35 to the USAF. It hints towards political corruption.

I would like to think that if JF-17 is selected, it goes towards proving its capabilities relative to its price at the very least. However a purchase could also be explained by political motivations.

 

[SinoSoldier]

That's totally nonsensical and irresponsible spending for a relatively poor nation with no serious threat to its sovereignty or interests. All these fighters have areas where they overlap. Even the USAF only just keeps four separate air-superiority and multirole fighter platforms now with the introduction of the F-35 to the USAF. It hints towards political corruption.

I would like to think that if JF-17 is selected, it goes towards proving its capabilities relative to its price at the very least. However a purchase could also be explained by political motivations.

The EAF seems fairly pleased with the Rafales but has trouble sourcing them from France due to export restrictions of certain US-made components. I disagree with your assertion that Egypt has no serious threat, but you'd be right that the four jets would have significant capability and role overlap.

It's also reasonable to think that the EAF might be trialling these fighters and is retaining the option to purchase large numbers of one or two types in the future.

 

[asif iqbal]

Good !

I hope PAC builds export orders next year

Since PAF is not taking anymore Block II units

What is the staff as PAC going to do otherwise ? B3 is due in end of 2019

Whole year to sit and drink lots of coffee

Next year we should fill export orders 16 x JF17

Then switch to B3 production

 

[SinoSoldier]

Good !

I hope PAC builds export orders next year

Since PAF is not taking anymore Block II units

What is the staff as PAC going to do otherwise ? B3 is due in end of 2019

Whole year to sit and drink lots of coffee

Next year we should fill export orders 16 x JF17

Then switch to B3 production

Rumors from a few credible sources are indicating that the Block III prototype might be ready by May 2019.

 

[SinoSoldier]

According to Alan Warnes (I'd rate him a quite credible source), the Egyptian Air Force is reviewing the JF-17 Block III program.


The rest of the article is behind a paywall.

====

On a separate note, Huitong (and a few other sources) are claiming that the Azerbaijan Air Force is in the final stages of signing a contract for the JF-17 Block II+. The Block II+ is of the basic Block II configuration but with a retrofitted AESA radar. This was first reported by Azerbaijani media during the IDEAS 2018 exhibition in Karachi, Pakistan. The final configuration of the aircraft is reported to be settled.

Link:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

====

Personal comments:

The EAF will be facing a massive logistics problem if this is true, given the fact that they operate aircraft from at least four different countries: F-16s from the US, MiG-35s from Russia, Rafales from France, and potentially JF-17 Block IIIs from China/Pakistan. However, the Block III will add substantial capability gains to the EAF as it transitions to an AESA-dominated fleet of high-end 4+ generation fighter platforms.

Full article from Alan Warnes:

EDEX 2018: Egypt eyes JF-17 Thunder Block 3s
5th December 2018 - 16:50 GMT | by

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in Cairo

The Egyptian Air Force (EAF) is currently reviewing the progress of the PAC/Chengdu JF-17 Thunder.

At EDEX 2018 in Cairo, Shephard has learnt that representatives from the EAF held a meeting with AVIC officials at Zhuhai Air Show in early November.

Officials were provided with a progress report on the more advanced

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-Sino fighter. The EAF requirement could be ‘for more than 100’ aircraft said the source.

Newer Block 3 versions will be boosted with a Chinese Airborne Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar as well as an integrated EW system and new avionics.

There are two Chinese contenders, after the Leonardo Grifo option was dropped. The Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology KLJ-7A is being marketed by China Electronics Technology Group Corporation.

The second one, is the Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute air-cooling LKF601E. Both were on display at Zhuhai. CATIC has thrown its weight behind the latter option and replacing the JF-17’s original KLJ-7 is simply a case of taking out the old system and inserting the new one.

Both radars are currently being evaluated by the Pakistan Air Force and a decision is expected by the end of the year.

In addition to an AESA radar, the JF-17s come with capabilities the EAF are keen to have like the Chinese SD-10A Beyond Visual Range air to air missile and C-802A anti-shipping weapon.

With around 100 of the second generation Chengdu F-7s and MiG-21s in EAF service edging towards the end of service life, the Block 3 JF-17 Thunder could be a good relatively inexpensive option.

Egypt and China have worked together extensively in the past, with their biggest project in recent times being the assembly of 120 K-8 Karakoram jet trainers at the Helwan Aircraft Factory between 2000-2010.

The 100+ JF-17 Thunders

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have now flown over 40,000 hours with six operational squadrons, so they are a mature system now.

They fulfil both an air-to-air and air-to-ground role and now have an air to air refuelling capability. The JF-17 Block 3s are expected start coming off the production line by the end of 2019 and be operational with the PAF in 2021.

Another attractive proposition for the EAF, is that the PAF will start building two-seater Block 3 versions by the end of 2020, which will fulfil both training and tactical roles.

First mention of a twin-seat Block III.

 

[asif iqbal]

Full article from Alan Warnes:


First mention of a twin-seat Block III.

Well the JF17B was went to be the precursor to Block III, as a matter of fact it was pretty much the Block III minus the details, and the order for Block III was to be split 28+22 in A and B form