JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[manqiangrexue]

You don't even know that the Gripen's supercruise capacities was successful tested in 2009 and the E variant will be able to archive and maintain supercruise with a meaningful air-to-air combat load.
And then having the balls claiming I would make up things.

It's pretty obvious that there is more fanboy wishful thinking behind the FC-1 then actual facts.

The Gripen was tested in 2009 for supercruise but it was not with payload, which is why he said, "supercruise with a load." Neither the duration nor distance were reported. I have not seen any reports on Gripen supercruising with meaningful air-to-air load; if you have, please post it/them and what the load was. In general, Gripen is kinematically superior to JF-17 in most parameters though its service ceiling is lower, given the the Thunder the look-down-shoot down capability.

As for radar and avionics, JF-17 will have one advantage of trickle-down technology from China's top fighters as their tech becomes more affordable with R&D costs already spent and manufacturing improves/picks up scale. Recently, there were reports that the Block III Thunder AESA is an equal to F-35's radar. Whether this is somewhat of an exaggeration is up for (non-meaningful, uninformed) debate, but 2 weeks ago, anyone who suggested that China was ahead of the US in rail-gun tech would have been trampled with accusations of being a fanboy.

I'm not saying that Thunder is definitively superior to Gripen nor the other way around but there are many unknowns and of what we know, both designs have their advantages. Don't underestimate the cost factor as well. From what I can see, with the Gripen E at $85 mill (

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) and the Block III Thunder at $32 mill (wiki source not reliable but only number I can find), to be fair, Gripen needs to take on Thunder at nearly 1 vs 3 ($85 mill vs $96 mill).

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

You guys are getting too much into who is better on PAPER INFORMATION. Wars are not fought on technical specs only---.

Super cruise is not the 'only' magic bullet---. Higher the speed---lesser ability to turn in a tighter circle---more prone to a missile strike---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Just look at those beautiful Mig 21 wingroots---courtesy @airmarshall / falcons.pk / pdf

 

[Pmichael]

The Gripen was tested in 2009 for supercruise but it was not with payload, which is why he said, "supercruise with a load." Neither the duration nor distance were reported. I have not seen any reports on Gripen supercruising with meaningful air-to-air load; if you have, please post it/them and what the load was. In general, Gripen is kinematically superior to JF-17 in most parameters though its service ceiling is lower, given the the Thunder the look-down-shoot down capability.

As for radar and avionics, JF-17 will have one advantage of trickle-down technology from China's top fighters as their tech becomes more affordable with R&D costs already spent and manufacturing improves/picks up scale. Recently, there were reports that the Block III Thunder AESA is an equal to F-35's radar. Whether this is somewhat of an exaggeration is up for (non-meaningful, uninformed) debate, but 2 weeks ago, anyone who suggested that China was ahead of the US in rail-gun tech would have been trampled with accusations of being a fanboy.

I'm not saying that Thunder is definitively superior to Gripen nor the other way around but there are many unknowns and of what we know, both designs have their advantages. Don't underestimate the cost factor as well. From what I can see, with the Gripen E at $85 mill (

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) and the Block III Thunder at $32 mill (wiki source not reliable but only number I can find), to be fair, Gripen needs to take on Thunder at nearly 1 vs 3 ($85 mill vs $96 mill).

The Gripen is capable of supercruise with 2 WVR and 2 BVR missiles, so that's quite meaningful. That what Saab communicates to customers, which are conservative claims because the NG demo actually demonstrated better supercruise capacities.

The rest like the Block III radar is equal to the F-35 or regarding to the costs are a combination of wishful thinking and insanity.

 

[Deino]

...
Just look at those beautiful Mig 21 wingroots...

Not sure where in this image you can see " Mig 21 wingroots" ???

 

[manqiangrexue]

The Gripen is capable of supercruise with 2 WVR and 2 BVR missiles, so that's quite meaningful. That what Saab communicates to customers, which are conservative claims because the NG demo actually demonstrated better supercruise capacities.

The rest like the Block III radar is equal to the F-35 or regarding to the costs are a combination of wishful thinking and insanity.

Where is the source for super-cruise with 4 missiles? Better super-cruise capabilities than what? I don't see a source with range, time, payload, so what communication? I'm just asking for a citation/source.

Not that actually having super-cruise would end a JF-17 Block III vs. Gripen E discussion, because a Gripen going up against 3 Thunders coming towards it at higher altitude armed with radars that can see and lock the Gripen first is not a situation for super-cruise to overturn, though the Gripen can turn tail and run faster on full afterburners if it survives the initial missile salvo.

As I said before, it's the same level of "insanity" as saying that China would mount a rail-gun to a ship before the US, had someone said it two weeks ago... except maybe the radar claim is a little more sane since the manufacturers of the Thunder Block III radar actually made this claim while no one claimed that China's first rail-gun was ship-ready. If you directly dismiss the manufacturer's claims in black and white because you can't believe it's that good, then the wishful thinking and insanity lies squarely with you.

 

[Pmichael]

We are entering fantasy land again.

also

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The rest is also quite meaningful when the block III hasn't even seen its first flight.

 

[ougoah]

You don't even know that the Gripen's supercruise capacities was successful tested in 2009 and the E variant will be able to archive and maintain supercruise with a meaningful air-to-air combat load.
And then having the balls claiming I would make up things.

It's pretty obvious that there is more fanboy wishful thinking behind the FC-1 then actual facts.

Lol E variant. By the time that comes out, even FC-31 will be ready. For the time being, JF-17 block 2 isn't far behind Gripen C at all. Loses out on engine performance and agility but everything else is pretty much on par as far as we know. How do you know for certain Gripen C is that much better than JF-17?

Where's the fanboy thinking behind FC-1?? I didn't say anything about JF-17 apart from the paper specs meet Gripen's. Current generation. AESA will also appear on next JF-17 so it doesn't fall behind at all. Gripen can only claim slightly better performance for twice the price.

I wasn't aware Gripen ever tested supercruise with missiles. Can you provide a link?

 

[Yodello]

We are entering fantasy land again.

also

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The rest is also quite meaningful when the block III hasn't even seen its first flight.

Lots of fancy claims intertwined with feasible and real performance specs in that web page... quite understandable, since they're promoting their product....!
For one, it claims as follows, "The Gripen NG is the most agile fighter in the world in close combat", which is highly dubious at best and can be debated ad nauseam.
The JF-17 has a better growth trajectory than the Gripen according to my own opinion. As I've stated earlier, having the JF-17 being associated with Pakistan and China, I see the JF-17 having continuous upgrades, and the scale and advancement of the Chinese Military Industrial complex already dwarves the Swedish MIC by any measure and is only likely to get more advanced and keep growing, which will have trickle down effect on the JF-17 future Block upgrades. So having the JF-17 being associated with a rising Military Superpower gives the JF-17 the edge over the Gripen, if nothing else. My two cents.

 

[Gloire_bb]

Seems like there is a slight fc-1 engine upgrade on schedule.
Klimov lists creation of RD-93MA(engine version specifically for FC-1) in its current activities.