JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[rhino123]

In my opinion, JF-17 is an excellent aircraft, ask the pilots who piloted them and they are the best person to answer that question, all the other are just reading the spec from a piece of paper.

Anyway, why are we not seeing lots of sales even in third world air force. I think it still boils down to the following,

1) JF-17 is not exactly an extremely cheap aircraft, it is cheap as compared to Su27 family of aircraft, Mig 29, F16 etc, but not exactly very very cheap.
2) Most third world countries already flies old Mig-21 family of aircraft and most will continue to use the Soviet era aircrafts because they might already have a great deal of experience with these aircrafts and systems so the new JF-17 might not cut in immediately.
3) JF-17/FC-1 is a joint venture with China and Pakistan, I believe CAC would like to push out products to other nations that are 100% owned by the Chinese themselves (I know I will, why would I want to share profit?)

 

[thunderchief]

You got to be patient . As an export product JF-17 is still in its infancy , with no definite proposal what could potential buyer expect . All we know now is that Block I production ended and Block II is starting . Therefore , export variant would be probably based on Block II . But no definite proposal with list of equipment and price has been submitted .Mind you , when you get into actual negotiations customers could demand customization according to their needs (and of course , price would change because of that ) . Yet , you still need default variant with price tag , so everyone could do initial calculation of cost effectiveness .

 

[asif iqbal]

Personally I would have hoped that the current Block II configuration should really have been the Block I standard back in. 2009, that is have aerial refueling and AWAS integration right from the start so the Block II follow on has things like IRST and WS13 that would set JF-17 right up for export orders knowing a Chinese engine is completing the package

First question many ask is what powers the Thunder doesn't go down well when you say a Russian engine kind of kills the whole "indigenous" capabilitys

Having said that Block II has serious potential with Pakistan China can have the added luxuary of doing more business with Muslim country's which otherwise would not buy from China, It opens more doors and I hope Egypt can secure a order for JF-17 everyone has visited Kamra from Saudi Princes to Iraqi air force commander they know the score they know what Pakistan Air Force is capable of we know what we are talking about when it comes to air to air combat theres no surprises

So if Pakistan says the JF-17 is good it must be, we operate the F16 C/D Block 52+ a top of the line fighter and have operated F16 longer than any other airforce barring USA itself and Israel even before Turkey got theirs and the second nation to actually use it in combat and score and aerial kill

The attrition rate the ratios the fighter pilots need no introduction, even today the air force has some very very capable Sqaudron leaders one who will shine above the rest when war comes knocking and leading the attack will be the JF-17 Thunder then you will see everyone saying "oh yes please we wil take a few of those fighter jets"

Egypt alone can pull 2-3 Sqadurons of this aircraft no sweat give it time let the thing grow don't kill it before it even starts everyone starts from somewhere the orders will come I just hope we can expand the fleet to over 250 aircraft even beyond

 

[timepass]

It opens more doors and I hope Egypt can secure a order for JF-17 everyone has visited Kamra from Saudi Princes to Iraqi air force commander they know the score they know what Pakistan Air Force is capable of we know what we are talking about when it comes to air to air combat theres no surprises

Breaking news!!!!

Just now Pakistan media quoted that Chief of Army staff have arrived in KSA for defense talks.......

 

[AssassinsMace]

The brand name mentality is in play with military hardware as it is with luxury bags. If you look at the markets that would be big potential buyers they too value brand name luxury bags.

I'm sure the competition is working to prevent Chinese higher-end arm sales. It's just like the recent article alarmed that the J-20 is going to be exported. A lot of holes in that article but the point is they don't want China in the arms export business especially the higher-end items. If it were about quality, why not let potential enemies buy bad quality military hardware? Not only do they waste money but it won't work when they use it. But you're not alarmed over something that's not a threat.

China's largest hump to get over is reputation. That's why they don't want Chinese arms exports to see the light of day. Look at the alarm over HJ-8s in the hands of rebels in Syria. Those are the guys they support so why the alarm? Because it's all about the contradiction to that reputation. A lot of good advertising for China there. The day you see a Chinese fighter defeat a Western one is the day when the whole landscape changes. That's what the competition is trying to prevent from happening.

 

[plawolf]

The brand name mentality is in play with military hardware as it is with luxury bags. If you look at the markets that would be big potential buyers they too value brand name luxury bags.

I'm sure the competition is working to prevent Chinese higher-end arm sales. It's just like the recent article alarmed that the J-20 is going to be exported. A lot of holes in that article but the point is they don't want China in the arms export business especially the higher-end items. If it were about quality, why not let potential enemies buy bad quality military hardware? Not only do they waste money but it won't work when they use it. But you're not alarmed over something that's not a threat.

China's largest hump to get over is reputation. That's why they don't want Chinese arms exports to see the light of day. Look at the alarm over HJ-8s in the hands of rebels in Syria. Those are the guys they support so why the alarm? Because it's all about the contradiction to that reputation. A lot of good advertising for China there. The day you see a Chinese fighter defeat a Western one is the day when the whole landscape changes. That's what the competition is trying to prevent from happening.

Great points, I would also like to add that in this day and age, extremely few militaries, and certainly all the ones eying up new fighter purchases, are facing any serious military threat.

In short, no one is in the market because they are gearing up for war, so cost-benefit hardly comes into it. These days, countries mainly buy fighters to show off and play one-up-manship with their rivals.

That is why everyone is looking to buy a well estaished 'branded' fighter over a new and relatively unknown one.

 

[kwaigonegin]

Great points, I would also like to add that in this day and age, extremely few militaries, and certainly all the ones eying up new fighter purchases, are facing any serious military threat.

In short, no one is in the market because they are gearing up for war, so cost-benefit hardly comes into it. These days, countries mainly buy fighters to show off and play one-up-manship with their rivals.

That is why everyone is looking to buy a well estaished 'branded' fighter over a new and relatively unknown one.

Don't forget kicks backs and corruption! you seldom hear this in the news but there is a very dark side to military procurement. Less than honest politicians and their cronies have gained favors and reaped much riches from military arms deals. Unfortunately it's not uncommon these the politicans are the ones ultimately making the purchasing decisions and not the military brass... of course in many nations they are also one of the same so there's that!

 

[asif iqbal]

Don't forget kicks backs and corruption! you seldom hear this in the news but there is a very dark side to military procurement. Less than honest politicians and their cronies have gained favors and reaped much riches from military arms deals. Unfortunately it's not uncommon these the politicans are the ones ultimately making the purchasing decisions and not the military brass... of course in many nations they are also one of the same so there's that!

Correct Al Yamamah arms deals runs into the billions, UK government shut down the case down no one is allowed to investigate it

 

[AssassinsMace]

The question that brought up this discussion is also from the same one that asked why Su-30s and not J-11Bs regarding the recent intercept story. They were rhetorical questions not looking for answers. Should we apply that same logic to why F-22s were never used in a combat situation? Is there an argument that no modern military fighter has really been tested in combat against an equal or superior foe? Western fighters have gone up against Russian fighters in the Middle East. Do we hear how Russian fighters are inferior or does training play a large role also? An experienced veteran pilot in an older aircraft can beat an inexperienced pilot in an advanced one. Which brings into question is the edge in technology or in training and experience? If the same problems being reported of the F-35 were applied to any advanced gen fighter from China, it would feed a negative reputation overall that the Chinese couldn't get it done.

 

[chuck731]

Why is it hard to accept that it makes it much harder to sell an whole new aircraft if the country of origin would not give it a vote of confidence by using it in its own Air Force? It doesn't mean the plane is no good. It just means an independent obesever with more limited resources have less assurance of its quality, and reliability of on-going support.

Most of potential buyers of JF-17 really do not have the full range of engineering expertise to be able to fully independently evaluate the true merits and defects of the JF-17, nor have the ability to take up any slack in future manufacturer support for the JF-17. They would rely on the Chinese air force to convince them with its own money this plane is not only what it is cracked up to be, but also support for this plane would be ongoing, and any deficiency revealed in the plane would be addressed on a cost shared basis rather than on a total customer cost basis.

But the Chinese Air Force has no need for this aircraft, and thus can not show this kind of commitment to this aircraft.

Is it a wonder this plane might turn out to be hard to sell?