JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[tphuang]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

I think all that has already ended... China has stop producing J-7E/G. They are shifting to FC-1,J-11B and J-10.. With WZ-10 coming up next.
Who is going tp say China produced obsolete aircraft?

They were still producing J-7G this past year. I'm not sure if anymore will be produced this coming year, but if J-10 production can't ramp up to the point where it can replace the retiring J-7s, we might see even more J-7Gs.

 

[ahho]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

China is still producing "outdated" weapon systems because it doesn't need anything better since they are still more capable than what many of China's neighbors possess. Also, according to a defensive policy, the PLA strength lies in numbers. This is common sense when you are borded by 14 countries and don't have sufficient resource or skill to overshadow them by technological superiority. Don't underestimate the J-7G or other old model upgrades, because they still pack a punch when armed with the right missile systems and used as fire support. Although China started off late industrializing, its military developments have almost caught up with that of the West, shortening the 50 year lag to at least 20 years for the PLAAF, maybe 15 years for the PLAN, and 10 years for the PLA. This difference is likely to become (exponentially) shorter in the coming years.

No emotions were involved in the FC-1 discussion, at least on my part.

those have changed my friend.

on another note, are the new j-7e or g for exports or most of the exports are used ones?? About j-10 not being able to replace j-7s (i know that this has being discussed a bit before) why wouldn't plaaf use fc-1 as a replacement???
Both are single engine, similar in design (to a degree) and fc-1 has better radar and bvr capability (although a bit overated)

Oh by the way, what is the estimated cost of producing a j-7g and fc-1??

 

[alwaysfresh]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

Your military experience may be plenty but comes to spotting a real photo and a PSed, I have serious doubt on you! Maybe next time,you can study a photo hard enogh first before quickly jump into conclusion of a photo of PSed..

This is a direct personal attack. The following: "! Maybe next time,". The "!" and "Maybe next time" is counter-productive to communicating your position.

 

[pshamim]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

This is a direct personal attack. The following: "! Maybe next time,". The "!" and "Maybe next time" is counter-productive to communicating your position.

alwaysfresh!

Stop fanning the fire. Hopefully, you can increase everyone's knowledge by discussing the topic on hand. You are smart and I am sure you can provide your insight about the jf-17s

 

[crobato]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

I don't think anyone except you has tossed the J-7G and the F-16A into the same category. They're not the same, and are not comparable. In fact, the LFX program wanted a fighter that can counter the MiG-21. So stop saying what's obviously false, over and over.

When the LFX was concieved, it had something like the MiG-21 in mind, but the J-7G isn't just a mere MiG-21. The aerodynamics of the plane has been seriously changed by the new wing, and the avionics of the plane has a very decidedly Western bent. The engine of the plane actually belongs to a different generation of MiG-21, joined to the much lighter airframe of the original generation, creating a hot rod effect.

I am confident in the opinion that the J-7E/G are the best handling and most agile Fishbed designs ever. Against other MiG-21s, they can hold more than their own in WVR. I kind of think that the J-7E/G might hold with the F-16A (the type considered the most agile) on instantaneous turn rates, but fall quickly behind on sustained turn rates.

China is still producing "outdated" weapon systems because it doesn't need anything better since they are still more capable than what many of China's neighbors possess.

Not if these neighbors include F-16 Block 20s, Mirage 2000-5s, Block 52s, the most modern F-15 type (F-15K), and the Su-30MKI.

Also, according to a defensive policy, the PLA strength lies in numbers. This is common sense when you are borded by 14 countries and don't have sufficient resource or skill to overshadow them by technological superiority. Don't underestimate the J-7G or other old model upgrades, because they still pack a punch when armed with the right missile systems and used as fire support. Although China started off late industrializing, its military developments have almost caught up with that of the West, shortening the 50 year lag to at least 20 years for the PLAAF, maybe 15 years for the PLAN, and 10 years for the PLA. This difference is likely to become (exponentially) shorter in the coming years.

That was the original belief of the PLAAF, but it seems to be changing now. They are admitting indirectly they won't be replacing planes number by number and will try to go with a smaller but much more technologically capable force instead.

Economics play a part of it too. A small but much more modern force can have capabilities greater or equal than a much more numerous but technically lower level force. And yet this smaller but more modern force can also be cheaper to maintain, starting with less mouths to feed, pay salaries, train, to house, and all that. Less planes to maintain, repair, fuel and all that.

Consider for example, the J-7E/G has a more limited radar. So the range isn't quite high, although the plane has RWRs. To give the plane the situational awareness it needs, it would tax more on the resources of your command network like AWACS and your GCI than lets say a more advanced fighter.

I feel that the plane is being used more as a training fighter so the pilots can log hours, train, wargame, and eventually, move on to more advanced jets.

J-8F is a little different. Its BVR capability and speed gives it an edge but its lack of agility can be problematic when it has to evade opposing AAMs. Lets not forget that those turbojets eat up too much gas, and on the J-8F, its double of that of the J-7E/G (both use the same turbojet).

Whatever reasons why both legacy fighters are being kept, its now out of the window circa 2007 with the J-10 now official. In China there seems to be some kind of bureaucratic inertia that seems almost unstoppable, and they're not so kin in closing down assembly lines and laying off trained workers, especially in the defense industry. At the same time, the PLAAF still hasn't completely replaced (far from it) the large numbers of Q-5s, older J-7 models and older J-8II models. So there you go, you have peacetime reasons of keeping assembly lines employed, and pilots still flying. But tactically, its not very advantageous. Its a fantasy to think it can hold up against some of the more advanced fighters in the region. The one consistent tactic these legacy planes can employ is to ambush, not to directly fight more advanced opponents, but to take them when these opponents are bothered with the more advanced PLAAF jets. To think that some of these legacy planes may still be around 15 years from now when JSFs abound. There is no future potentiality anymore.

The problem is worsened because the Su-27s that China bought and licensed, that was supposed to help modernize the fleet, aren't that modern themselves in terms of avionics, so even these are falling behind the curve.

Last year, it seems that China is still producing enough J-7Gs and J-8Fs to replace at a rate of one regiment of each type per year (avg. 32 aircraft). Considering these are old designs whose assembly facilities are long amortized, that won't dent the budget, but even these numbers are not even enough to help quickly modernize the rest of the rapidly aging fleet.

 

[Gollevainen]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

Now this is the last warning, Kilo636, stop pissing into eletric wire (deliberatly seeking confrontation with mods), it will snap any given moment. And Alwaysfresh, leave the moderation to mods, Thank You.

If I have to use colours once again in this thread, the one causing it gets boot, Understood?:nono:

 

[maozedong]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

PLA will buy several hundred FC-1
Hou Shuping ,Yang Xinggen Reporter Du becomes the intern Li fine jade 2,006, is doomed for a year in the Chinese aviation history which is attracts worldwide attention: Is the year on December 29, the our country independent development has the international advanced level the new generation of high performance, multipurpose, the all-weather fighter J-10 disclassied. Is the year on April 28, on May 10, our country has the completely independent intellectual property rights the owlet dragon 04 airplanes, two time spatially tests by the full page condition goes through a strategic pass, hovers one after another the blue sky; In December, becomes the our country first frame which flies undertakes to have the independent intellectual property rights the new branch passenger plane nose -ARJ21 payment, becomes flies the group to sell the income to top 7 billion Yuan. But 45 year-old Luo Ronghuai, is the written above miracle becomes flies the group to operate the rudder the person. The good dream reaches the clouds As serviceman's descendant, Luo Ronghuai on fills since childhood to the blue sky yearned for that, When in 1978 filled in the university wish, he has reported the aviation colleges and universities without hesitation, was admitted the Nanjing aeronautical institute to study the airplane design. The university graduated from 1982 to becomes flies the test flight station, from when the labor entertainer called in to 1984 flies the corporate office worked as the secretary, again to 1992, was appointed airplane company 15 workshop directors, subsequently was becomes flies the company production control to be long, vice- chief engineer, deputy general manager, general manager. More than 20 years time over qickly, Luo Ronghuai leaves his youth the dream to be more and more near. Last year, Luo Ronghuai returned to south the alma mater the navigation, has made a topic was "Keeps watch Daytime" the lecture in front of the fellow female apprentice. "The blue sky is the our aviation person's institute of ideal, we must like keep watch own spiritual home such, ours ideal, the aspiration, the mission, the responsibility, the youth, the fervor, the wisdom, the painstaking care, the sweat condenses to the aviation enterprise in, by the life The absolute sincerity loyalty keeps watch it... ... " More than two hours, Luo Ronghuai the fervor turned the head own for more than 20 years to pursue the dream course, the entire audience bursts into thunderous applause, the tears fluttered about. The owlet dragon leaves the sheath In March, 2003, Luo Ronghuai holds the post flies group company chairmen of the board, general manager. Beginning gets to work, the key model project is entering the decisive battle time, the multi- strip front comprehensively unfolds, the production organization coordinated difficulty is enormous, the fund becomes the prominent question, adds it "the non- standard" the epidemic situation surprise attack, is as if intentionally suffers this position "young chief". For many years, has become flies the group although to establish the great merit for the national defense enterprise, its output value actually continuously paces back and forth in several in the hundreds million, Luo Ronghuai believed, this with becomes the status which flies not to be extremely symmetric. "Must break through, lets fly realizes a series of leaps!" Just took up an official post Luo Ronghuai pledged. Actually, Luo Ronghuai has aimed at the breach the owlet dragon 01 fighter planes which soon takes off. On August 25, 2003, is all becomes the flier to raise eyebrow the day: The owlet dragon fighter plane is taken to the threshing ground to fly. This day, 42 year-old scene commander in chief Luo Ronghuai, especially put on bright red T-shirt --he want to use 大吉大利 Chinese red to pray for the heart in dream; The owlet dragon 01 fighter planes howl are piercing the vault of heaven that moment, entire audience's people all are cheering jump for joy, but Luo Ronghuai actually tears crossflow. The head flew successfully! From August 25 to September 2, the slender dragon 01 fighter planes companies flies 8 rises and falls, is complete every time. Very quickly entered the evasion, this flies in the history in any model type is unprecedented. As soon as flies flushes the day On April 9, 2004 17 o'clock 30 minute, the owlet dragon 03 straight thrusts blue sky, the owlet dragon 03 heads fly successfully, symbolized Cheng Feiyi has had the continual volume production owlet Long Ji ability. On April 28, 2006, on May 10, the owlet dragon 04 hovers the blue sky, symbolized our country independently develops, has the international advanced level, has the independent intellectual property rights the owlet dragon light fighter plane two time "spatially to test" by the full page condition goes through a strategic pass, has laid the foundation for the volume production and the exportation. In December, 2006, becomes the our country first frame which flies undertakes to have the independent intellectual property rights the new branch passenger plane nose -ARJ21 smooth payment, symbolized our country aviation industry completely faces the market for the first time; On December 29, 2006, the our country independent development has the international advanced level the new generation of high performance, multipurpose, the all-weather fighter plane J10 machine to shoot up to the sky! According to Luo Ronghuai disclosed that, at present, overseas customer to owlet dragon airplane interest very large, ejected more than 200 intent order form; The PLA air force also in aggressively carries on the proof, the ordering quantity not under to several hundred. According to the forecast, future 20 years, the whole world will have to increase civil airplane 27,200, the Chinese market will only need more than 1,700 civil airplanes, the total value will reach as high as 230 billion US dollars. Luo Ronghuai said that, the next step, their goal will aim at this giant cake, greatly will do especially does

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transtale by babel fish translation

 

[crobato]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

So does the PLAAF really has such a budget tightrope, that they need to procure several hundred FC-1 rather than J-10? What's that thing about as much as 1200 J-10s maybe made during the plane's lifetime?

 

[tphuang]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

[qimg]http://image2.sina.com.cn/jc/p/2007-02-08/U1335P27T1D430564F3DT20070208074007.jpg[/qimg]
PLA will buy several hundred FC-1
Hou Shuping ,Yang Xinggen Reporter Du becomes the intern Li fine jade 2,006, is doomed for a year in the Chinese aviation history which is attracts worldwide attention: Is the year on December 29, the our country independent development has the international advanced level the new generation of high performance, multipurpose, the all-weather fighter J-10 disclassied. Is the year on April 28, on May 10, our country has the completely independent intellectual property rights the owlet dragon 04 airplanes, two time spatially tests by the full page condition goes through a strategic pass, hovers one after another the blue sky; In December, becomes the our country first frame which flies undertakes to have the independent intellectual property rights the new branch passenger plane nose -ARJ21 payment, becomes flies the group to sell the income to top 7 billion Yuan. But 45 year-old Luo Ronghuai, is the written above miracle becomes flies the group to operate the rudder the person. The good dream reaches the clouds As serviceman's descendant, Luo Ronghuai on fills since childhood to the blue sky yearned for that, When in 1978 filled in the university wish, he has reported the aviation colleges and universities without hesitation, was admitted the Nanjing aeronautical institute to study the airplane design. The university graduated from 1982 to becomes flies the test flight station, from when the labor entertainer called in to 1984 flies the corporate office worked as the secretary, again to 1992, was appointed airplane company 15 workshop directors, subsequently was becomes flies the company production control to be long, vice- chief engineer, deputy general manager, general manager. More than 20 years time over qickly, Luo Ronghuai leaves his youth the dream to be more and more near. Last year, Luo Ronghuai returned to south the alma mater the navigation, has made a topic was "Keeps watch Daytime" the lecture in front of the fellow female apprentice. "The blue sky is the our aviation person's institute of ideal, we must like keep watch own spiritual home such, ours ideal, the aspiration, the mission, the responsibility, the youth, the fervor, the wisdom, the painstaking care, the sweat condenses to the aviation enterprise in, by the life The absolute sincerity loyalty keeps watch it... ... " More than two hours, Luo Ronghuai the fervor turned the head own for more than 20 years to pursue the dream course, the entire audience bursts into thunderous applause, the tears fluttered about. The owlet dragon leaves the sheath In March, 2003, Luo Ronghuai holds the post flies group company chairmen of the board, general manager. Beginning gets to work, the key model project is entering the decisive battle time, the multi- strip front comprehensively unfolds, the production organization coordinated difficulty is enormous, the fund becomes the prominent question, adds it "the non- standard" the epidemic situation surprise attack, is as if intentionally suffers this position "young chief". For many years, has become flies the group although to establish the great merit for the national defense enterprise, its output value actually continuously paces back and forth in several in the hundreds million, Luo Ronghuai believed, this with becomes the status which flies not to be extremely symmetric. "Must break through, lets fly realizes a series of leaps!" Just took up an official post Luo Ronghuai pledged. Actually, Luo Ronghuai has aimed at the breach the owlet dragon 01 fighter planes which soon takes off. On August 25, 2003, is all becomes the flier to raise eyebrow the day: The owlet dragon fighter plane is taken to the threshing ground to fly. This day, 42 year-old scene commander in chief Luo Ronghuai, especially put on bright red T-shirt --he want to use 大吉大利 Chinese red to pray for the heart in dream; The owlet dragon 01 fighter planes howl are piercing the vault of heaven that moment, entire audience's people all are cheering jump for joy, but Luo Ronghuai actually tears crossflow. The head flew successfully! From August 25 to September 2, the slender dragon 01 fighter planes companies flies 8 rises and falls, is complete every time. Very quickly entered the evasion, this flies in the history in any model type is unprecedented. As soon as flies flushes the day On April 9, 2004 17 o'clock 30 minute, the owlet dragon 03 straight thrusts blue sky, the owlet dragon 03 heads fly successfully, symbolized Cheng Feiyi has had the continual volume production owlet Long Ji ability. On April 28, 2006, on May 10, the owlet dragon 04 hovers the blue sky, symbolized our country independently develops, has the international advanced level, has the independent intellectual property rights the owlet dragon light fighter plane two time "spatially to test" by the full page condition goes through a strategic pass, has laid the foundation for the volume production and the exportation. In December, 2006, becomes the our country first frame which flies undertakes to have the independent intellectual property rights the new branch passenger plane nose -ARJ21 smooth payment, symbolized our country aviation industry completely faces the market for the first time; On December 29, 2006, the our country independent development has the international advanced level the new generation of high performance, multipurpose, the all-weather fighter plane J10 machine to shoot up to the sky! According to Luo Ronghuai disclosed that, at present, overseas customer to owlet dragon airplane interest very large, ejected more than 200 intent order form; The PLA air force also in aggressively carries on the proof, the ordering quantity not under to several hundred. According to the forecast, future 20 years, the whole world will have to increase civil airplane 27,200, the Chinese market will only need more than 1,700 civil airplanes, the total value will reach as high as 230 billion US dollars. Luo Ronghuai said that, the next step, their goal will aim at this giant cake, greatly will do especially does

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transtale by babel fish translation

if you looked carefully, I already posted this article on last page of this thread. Please don't repeat. I have no doubt that they can get more than 200 export orders for JF-17, but I'm not sure about domestic orders. I personally would not go for any, but that's just me.

 

[pshamim]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

So does the PLAAF really has such a budget tightrope, that they need to procure several hundred FC-1 rather than J-10? What's that thing about as much as 1200 J-10s maybe made during the plane's lifetime?

May be they know a little bit more about the Xialong than what you and I do. One thing is for sure that they will not be exposing J-10s in a big way to the export market. Also replacing every old aircraft in PLAAF by J-10 is purely a wishful thinking on the part of some. Capabilities and economics will dictate what PLAAF does and not what we say on these forums.

Contrary to many posters on this forum, I strongly believe that Fc-1 needs to be purchased by PLAAF in order for it to be an effective export aircraft. Secondly, this aircraft is going through a lot of continuing development. A FC-1/JF-17 in few years may turn out to a far advanced aircraft than the one we see today. Even on a daily basis, we find something new.