JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

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dlhh

New Member
Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

More on JF-17

Fuselage is built of lightweight aluminum alloys. Lifespan is expected to be 6,000 hrs or 25 years.

Internal fuel capacity is 2,200kg.

Flight controls is longitudinal quadreplex FBW, lateral is still mechanical. An all-aspect type 634 FBW system will be used in series production.

In-flight refueling probe on starboard side of cockpit area is being developed.

RD-93 turbofan thrust is 8.3 tonnes, 9 tonne thrust is being developed.

Avionics package integrated via MIL-STD 1553B digital bus driven by 2 twin 32bit computers, HUD with 24 degree field of view, 3 AMLCD multifunction cockpit displays, hybrid ring laser gyro/GPS-based inertial navigation system, HOTAS controls, HUMS (health & monitoring system).

X-band KLJ-10 monopulse radar, detect 40 airborne targets, track 10 and engage 2 at BVR range. Range for a 3sqm target is 75km in look up and 45km in look down. Seaborne target is 135km.

CTEC-built radar warning receiver has library of 100 threating emitters, to be increased to 300.

On board HF/VHF/UHF communications suite, supplemented by another radio to receive-only data-link for data relayed by Saab 2000 AEW&C.

Weapons maangement via a MIL-STD-1760 databus.

7 external hardpoints stations: 2 wingtips, 4 underwing and 1 centre fuselage

Target designation pod developed by Xian Sicong Group

Weapons package include:

GSH-23-2 twin barrel 23mm cannon
500kg Lei Ting 2 laser guided bomb
500kg FT-1 & 250kg FT-3 GPS guided PGMs
40km 500kg LS-6 PGM glide bomb with pop-out wings
22km PL-9C air to air within visual range missile with a g load of 40
70km PL-12 air to air within visual range missile with a g load of 38

Sorry, suppose to be
70km PL-12 air to air beyond visual range missile with a g load of 38
 

coolieno99

Junior Member
Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

More on JF-17..., hybrid ring laser gyro/GPS-based inertial navigation system,...
awhile ago, I 've seen a promotional video(on youtube) by AVIC, and it shown what appears to be a ring laser gyro. I am sometimes suprised by China's technical capabilities. Ring laser gyro has several advantages over mechanical gyros.
 

challenge

Banned Idiot
Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

More on JF-17

Fuselage is built of lightweight aluminum alloys. Lifespan is expected to be 6,000 hrs or 25 years.

Internal fuel capacity is 2,200kg.

Flight controls is longitudinal quadreplex FBW, lateral is still mechanical. An all-aspect type 634 FBW system will be used in series production.

In-flight refueling probe on starboard side of cockpit area is being developed.

RD-93 turbofan thrust is 8.3 tonnes, 9 tonne thrust is being developed.

Avionics package integrated via MIL-STD 1553B digital bus driven by 2 twin 32bit computers, HUD with 24 degree field of view, 3 AMLCD multifunction cockpit displays, hybrid ring laser gyro/GPS-based inertial navigation system, HOTAS controls, HUMS (health & monitoring system).

X-band KLJ-10 monopulse radar, detect 40 airborne targets, track 10 and engage 2 at BVR range. Range for a 3sqm target is 75km in look up and 45km in look down. Seaborne target is 135km.

CTEC-built radar warning receiver has library of 100 threating emitters, to be increased to 300.

On board HF/VHF/UHF communications suite, supplemented by another radio to receive-only data-link for data relayed by Saab 2000 AEW&C.

Weapons maangement via a MIL-STD-1760 databus.

7 external hardpoints stations: 2 wingtips, 4 underwing and 1 centre fuselage

Target designation pod developed by Xian Sicong Group

Weapons package include:

GSH-23-2 twin barrel 23mm cannon
500kg Lei Ting 2 laser guided bomb
500kg FT-1 & 250kg FT-3 GPS guided PGMs
40km 500kg LS-6 PGM glide bomb with pop-out wings
22km PL-9C air to air within visual range missile with a g load of 40
70km PL-12 air to air within visual range missile with a g load of 38

JF-17 also carry MAW,according to Chinese article published last year is pseudo-IRST,operate in "twin color",able to detect missile plumes at 20km away.
 

dlhh

New Member
Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

JF-17 also carry MAW,according to Chinese article published last year is pseudo-IRST,operate in "twin color",able to detect missile plumes at 20km away.

Yes, but the flight magazine where i got the article did not mention about MAW, though PAC, Karma website "http://www.pac.org.pk/amfsite-final/jf17specifications.html" mentioned MAW but did not specify details. PAC is the pakistani manufacturer for JF-17.

PL-12 takes only 20 seconds for it to attain a speed of Mach 4 to travel 30km (total range is 70km), so a MAW that a detect a missile at 20km isn't much help? JF-17 can neither outfly nor out-manoeuvre the incoming enemy missile!! JF-17 would need a raday decoy to escape the missile!
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

Yes, but the flight magazine where i got the article did not mention about MAW, though PAC, Karma website "http://www.pac.org.pk/amfsite-final/jf17specifications.html" mentioned MAW but did not specify details. PAC is the pakistani manufacturer for JF-17.

PL-12 takes only 20 seconds for it to attain a speed of Mach 4 to travel 30km (total range is 70km), so a MAW that a detect a missile at 20km isn't much help? JF-17 can neither outfly nor out-manoeuvre the incoming enemy missile!! JF-17 would need a raday decoy to escape the missile!

Every second helps and in life vs. death, a second can be an eternity. Besides the MAW is hooked to the chaffs and EW countermeasures for an automated measured response.
 

dlhh

New Member
Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

Every second helps and in life vs. death, a second can be an eternity. Besides the MAW is hooked to the chaffs and EW countermeasures for an automated measured response.

True, better to have MAW than none. However, if the missile has an active radar seeker, you need to fry the electronics of the missile or fool it with a active radar decoy which can fly the same speed and has radar signature like JF-17!
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

If it indeed can reach 30 km in 20 seconds, those are still values for the boost phase. Next 30 kms could take more time to reach, if the rocket motor is out, which a distinct possibility. Most of the missiles coast without thrust for most of their max range. Anyway, even 20 seconds is quite enough of a warning to deploy flares or to jack up the afterburners and go vertical. (i'm not saying that will necesarrily save the plane, but it certainly offers slightly better chances of survival)
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

Klimov is setting up a maintenance and repairs in China. This is mainly talking about helicopter engines, but maybe there is something regarding to RD-93 too.
ST. PETERSBURG. Oct 9 (Interfax) - The Klimov enterprise signed
contracts with Chinese companies worth over $12 million within the
framework the Aviation Expo China 2007 air show.
"Representatives of various companies held over 30 meetings within
the framework of Aviation Expo China. The meetings resulted in the
signing of agreements and contracts to deliver helicopter engines, spare
parts, and maintenance services," the company said in a statement.
Currently China is interested in establishing a works for certified
maintenance repair of helicopter engines designed at Klimov and the
Russian side is ready to develop cooperation in this area, the statement
reads.
Klimov is a leading designer of gas turbines in Russia. It creates
a wide range of engines for aircraft, helicopter, and tanks. The company
delivers its products to 80 countries. Some 95% of helicopters produced
in Russia are equipped with Klimov engines.
Klimov has been cooperating with Chinese companies for over 50
years. Over 500 TV3-117 and TV2-117 engines are installed in various
Chinese helicopters.
 

ccL1

New Member
Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

This sounded interesting to me.

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The news last month that Pakistan is likely to get French air-to-air missiles (AAMs) and radar for its JF-17 fighter aircraft has raised some eyebrows in the US.

The reason is that MICA AAMs produced by MBDA and RC-400 multimission radar built by Thales may enrich China's rapidly growing military capabilities if sold to Pakistan, since Islamabad is developing its fighter plane jointly with Beijing. The JF-17 is a lightweight multi-role fighter co-developed by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation under a joint venture of China and Pakistan.

Thus, some observers say, the widely debated European Union arm systems ban against China may finally be circumvented, in such a way that it could damage US efforts to keep Beijing's air power at disadvantage vis-a-vis Taiwan. As some Indian and Pakistani sources have pointed out, French-built Mirage fighters owned by Taiwan are actually equipped with such missiles and radar.

Taiwan and India are obviously concerned with China's military build-up. If China gets the chance to closely look at French advanced technology in possession of Taipei, Beijing could theoretically become capable of countering it effectively.

However, it must be noted that the issue of military technology transfer is fairly complicated, and that Pakistan's acquisition of French systems is not automatically a dramatic reinforcement of Chinese capabilities, unlike some reports suggest.

In fact, if French companies sell radar and missiles to Pakistan, they don't sell the know-how necessary to build such systems from scratch. Clearly, bits of the source code needed to integrate the components into the JF-17 will be transferred by the French to the Pakistanis. Missile-radar integration and avionics will be developed by France and Pakistan, with the Chinese contribution focused on hardware.

This means that if Pakistan transfers such code to Beijing, China could actually become capable of integrating the two systems into its fighter jets (like the J-10), although it will not include the JF-17 in its air force. But it does not mean that Beijing will be able to produce such systems.

Therefore, the key variable here is how many MICAs and RC-400s France sells to Pakistan. Of course, if Islamabad buys new series of them after the first acquisition, it is conceivable that China could get its hand on them in the future, independently of the JF-17 development.

Rumors of the deaL

It is certainly no secret that France has eyed Indian and Pakistani defense markets as a great opportunity to expand its strong military-industrial sector. For years, French companies have provided weapons and systems to both Delhi and Islamabad. However, the deal regarding the JF-17 has been a difficult one, mainly for political-diplomatic reasons. This explains the lack of information from France and the extreme cautiousness in all aspects of the current arrangements.

After some leading British and US publications highlighted the danger of sensitive military technology transfer to China via Pakistan, officials from MBDA and Thales refused to comment on the deal. France's Defense Minister Herve Morin subtly conveyed the Paris position nonetheless, as he replied to Associated Press journalists that "to my knowledge, there is no arms embargo for Pakistan".

Back in September 2004, Jane's Defence Weekly's special correspondent Robert Sae-Liu reported that the choice of a multimode pulse-Doppler radar for the JF-17 fighter was reported in 2003 as "involving a competition between Phazotron of Russia with the Kopyo system, Galileo (FIAR) of Italy with the Grifo S-7, and Thales of France with the RC 400".

Hence, a short history of the JF-17 project unveils Thales' interest. The simple fact that two French companies are involved in the issue worries the US. Paris has long lobbied within the EU for lifting of the arms embargo against Beijing imposed by Europe after the 1989 Tienanmen incident.

Most French Gaullists and Socialists have pushed for a lifting of the ban. The reason is twofold. On one hand, the French defense industry is aggressively seeking expansion in Asia's markets, and China is arguably the most interesting of them. On the other hand, Paris cultivates the geopolitical ambition of creating a multipolar world in which the EU will progressively acquire strategic autonomy from the United States.

However, President Nicolas Sarkozy's election in May 2007 has started an apparently rapid and powerful rapprochement between Paris and Washington on a number of issues. Interestingly, some French analysts who deal with so-called "economic warfare" dynamics have recently criticized France's pro-China orientation. They have even lambasted civilian air industry deals with Beijing made by Airbus, reasoning that French companies that only seek market opportunities will eventually jeopardize European technological superiority over China.

Up until this year, though, Washington has successfully counter-lobbied France's efforts to persuade its EU partners about the anachronism of the embargo, and the ban is still valid despite numerous predictions of its imminent demise. Now, Sino-Pakistani military cooperation, which is likely to remain strong also in light of the growing US-Indian strategic partnership, could complicate the situation even more.

Washington furious?

While on the surface the Franco-American reconciliation is fully underway, the reality is slightly more complicated. Paris' hard, pro-US stance on Iran's nuclear issue is one thing; another matter is how France and the US perceive the international system and balance of power.

Sarkozy's position on the arms ban against Beijing will possibly become clearer after the French president visits Beijing later this year, but it is unlikely that France will completely abandon its dream of a more assertive and autonomous Europe when it comes to security and defense policy.

Quoted by the Pakistani daily Dawn on September 14, British defense analyst and Asia specialist Alexander Neill said that Washington may have a "quite vicious" reaction if France does not reconsider selling such systems to Islamabad.

However, according to various sources, France and Pakistan will likely reach an agreement on the missiles and radar. It is thus possible that China will be able to exploit yet another fault line in French and American diplomacy.

Whether or not the development of the JF-17 will allow China to acquire military systems and technology that will boost its power in relation to Taiwan, as the US fears, such a program will likely cause a dilemma for France: by proceeding with enhanced cooperation with Pakistan, Paris risks not only triggering Washington's ire, but also upsetting India and Taiwan - thereby complicating its future defense marketing with two important buyers.

Federico Bordonaro is senior analyst with the Power and Interest News Report (
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). These views are his own.

What do you think about his assertion?

Are these French air-to-air missiles and radars even good?
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

I think French radars are good, but I have doubts about the MICA. It's a small missile only 115kg, that's no bigger than a PL-8B. Put radar guidance on it, and its basically a radar guided short range AAMs. Maybe its BVR too, but I don't believe it would go that far on its boost phase. In comparison the AMRAAM is 150kg, the R-77 is 170kg, and the SD-10 is 180kg. The heavier the missile is, the most propellant it has, the longer the boost, the longer the range.
 
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