JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[challenge]

given the technology explosion in the last 30 years,BVR interception is a thing's to come.during the desert storm, more than 90% USAF killed occured in BVR interception, this is for the first time BVR killed ratio out paced close in dogfight.(which is reverse of vietnam air war and middle east war).
and according to some analysis, BVR kill is things of the future.
during border war between india and pakistan, 2 PAF F-16 may have been lost LR radar guide AAM fire from Mirage-2000.

 

[mkhan]

I call BS on this. Can you post a link from an authenticated source? Which border war would this be?
The only "recent" "mini-war" that took place between india and pakistan was in kargil, where no air to air combat took place, simply because PAF did not take part in it. The reasons vary from Pakistan being worried that there was no way to label PAF jets as "local insurgents" to indian side saying that PAF was worried about the capabilities of IAF. Regardless of what happened there, no air to air combat took palce. IAF lost a couple of planes (only going by memory here) due to anti-aircraft missles. A couple of days later a Pakistan Navy plane was shot down in the sea (waaaaaaaaaay far away from kargil area). Pakistan said it was a training aircraft, india said it was a naval plane spying on them and ventured into indian territory.

Again, all these things played out on the international media, and every one is free to draw their own conclusions. But there was no Air-to-Air fighting.

 

[Lion]

given the technology explosion in the last 30 years,BVR interception is a thing's to come.during the desert storm, more than 90% USAF killed occured in BVR interception, this is for the first time BVR killed ratio out paced close in dogfight.(which is reverse of vietnam air war and middle east war).
and according to some analysis, BVR kill is things of the future.
during border war between india and pakistan, 2 PAF F-16 may have been lost LR radar guide AAM fire from Mirage-2000.

With more and more important of electronic warfare. Jamming is the way future aerial combat will go. With repeat jamming and counter jamming. Trying to id hostile and friendly again becomes difficult. BVR kill again might be hard to execute too.

PLAAF once conducted a massive aerial combat involving scenario of both equal strength forces of both with AWACS ,electronic jamming device and BVRAAM. In the end , most of the aerial battle again end up in WVR fight and dogfight repeats itself in modern aerial combat.


Regarding Gulf War I, its a war that happen almost 20 years ago.. Things changes very rapidly. It was a new aerial war fought with new concept. Heavy amphasize on electronic warfare. Jamming opponent radar and hack off their communication network,blinding them.. I will say Iraq is unlucky to be the first victim of such new warfare and they were caught off guard by such tatics.

Since then major military power nations have invested significantly on electronic warfare. Introduce new type of fighter slow down but continuous upgrade of their avionices become often. More and more reliant of AWACS and network.

Given the continuous upgrade of both India and Pakistan air forces. I will say India AF and Pakistan AF are roughly on the same strength.

 

[taimikhan]

given the technology explosion in the last 30 years,BVR interception is a thing's to come.during the desert storm, more than 90% USAF killed occured in BVR interception, this is for the first time BVR killed ratio out paced close in dogfight.(which is reverse of vietnam air war and middle east war).
and according to some analysis, BVR kill is things of the future.
during border war between india and pakistan, 2 PAF F-16 may have been lost LR radar guide AAM fire from Mirage-2000.

PAF never lost F-16s at the hands of any IAF aircraft. Out of the original 40 received in mid 80s, one was shot down due to friendly fire incident when another F-16s AIM-9 locked on the F-16 during a dog fight with Soviet/Afghan fighters intruding into Pakistani airspace.

And as for AIM-120s record, it has been so far fired and seen combat against aircraft inferior to USAF or western aircraft, against older Mig-23s, 25 & 29s who lacked BVR missiles themselves nor good jammers.

AIM-120s real test would be against aircraft who are equipped with jammers as well as BVR missiles themselves, then its real potential would be known and kill probability. Against inferior platforms, every weapon has a superior kill probability.

 

[challenge]

during the mid 90's German AF uses ex-east german MiG-29 armed with highly manuever IR guide AA-11 and HMD performed simulated dog fight against german AF F-4E armed with AARAAM (likely come from US stock) result 5 out 5 ,killed against MIG-29.
the MIG were "shoot down" before it can even engage the Phantom jet with her SRAAM.
BTW, during early 90's the test interception in the white sand,,AARAAM manage down a drone in heavy jamming environment.

 

[cloyce]

during the mid 90's German AF uses ex-east german MiG-29 armed with highly manuever IR guide AA-11 and HMD performed simulated dog fight against german AF F-4E armed with AARAAM (likely come from US stock) result 5 out 5 ,killed against MIG-29.
the MIG were "shoot down" before it can even engage the Phantom jet with her SRAAM.
BTW, during early 90's the test interception in the white sand,,AARAAM manage down a drone in heavy jamming environment.

I want your source about this one.

 

[Lion]

during the mid 90's German AF uses ex-east german MiG-29 armed with highly manuever IR guide AA-11 and HMD performed simulated dog fight against german AF F-4E armed with AARAAM (likely come from US stock) result 5 out 5 ,killed against MIG-29.
the MIG were "shoot down" before it can even engage the Phantom jet with her SRAAM.
BTW, during early 90's the test interception in the white sand,,AARAAM manage down a drone in heavy jamming environment.

Usually these type of exercise exclude the use of AWACS and true jamming is prohibited...

 

[siegecrossbow]

during the mid 90's German AF uses ex-east german MiG-29 armed with highly manuever IR guide AA-11 and HMD performed simulated dog fight against german AF F-4E armed with AARAAM (likely come from US stock) result 5 out 5 ,killed against MIG-29.
the MIG were "shoot down" before it can even engage the Phantom jet with her SRAAM.
BTW, during early 90's the test interception in the white sand,,AARAAM manage down a drone in heavy jamming environment.

I have actually heard the opposite from Western German sources. The MIG-29 regularly defeated the West German F-16s in dogfights due to its superior manoeuvrability and this may be one of the reasons for why Germany still retains small numbers of MIG-29s. Are you trying to imply that the F-16s are inferior to 3rd Generation F-4s?

 

[Lion]

I have actually heard the opposite from Western German sources. The MIG-29 regularly defeated the West German F-16s in dogfights due to its superior manoeuvrability and this may be one of the reasons for why Germany still retains small numbers of MIG-29s. Are you trying to imply that the F-16s are inferior to 3rd Generation F-4s?

Actually, F-16 is more slightly more manoeuvrable but it is the HMS of Mig-29 and AA-11 that often gives them the edge over F-16 in dogfight.

 

[Scratch]

After reunification, NVA AF MiG-29s were integrated into the German AF structure. Obviously a lot of testing was done. On the national and international (NATO) level. With the AA-11 & HMS, the Fulcrum was a deadly foe for many western aircraft in the WVR arena. Hence the learning points of these engagements were to either kill the MiG before it got in close enough to employ an Archer, or to min-range the missile, making it ineffective.
Killing 5 out of 5 MiGs when they only have SRAAM and the Phantoms have (then) modern APG-65 radars and AMRAAMs (wich were obviously purchased by the GAF from the US, I think the B model) it's no wonder the MiGs got slaughtered. The radar with the good detection capability was always the strength of the improved F-4F.
There are no german F-16s, btw. And the last german MiG-29s were flown to Poland on 04. Aug 2004, (sold for 1€).

There were a lot of remote airfields in east Germany, from wich scores of MiG-21 could take of, cross the border and soake up all the AMRAAMs, allowing the MiG-29s to go against AIM-7s, after the AMRAAM stocks were depleted.