Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Radar

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Schumacher said:

In international geopolitics, especially one involving intense rivalry like in this case, there's no such thing as lack of excuse, only lack of capability. If there's no excuse, make one up, like imaginary WMD etc, easy.
As for "force the US hand in coming down solidly on the side of the Japanese", again it's a question of capability.
US has sent F22, carriers, nuke subs to aid not only Japan but Phillipines as well, making very public appearances & I'm sure many more behind the scene. And what do we have now ? China in control of Schaborough Shoal & sailing at will into Diaoyu.
That's why I said some time ago instead of countless inconclusive posts of PLA vs US forces based on techs/tactics, just look at what's obvious right before our eyes, of very intense & real face off of the 2 recently & the outcome so far.

US/Japan have more than enough 'excuses' to shoot at PLA by now if they're confident of the outcome.

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Of course they haven't. Your overinflation of the importance of Scarborough Shoal is unconvincing. Japan and the US have ZERO geostrategic interest in this rock and will certainly not risk a shooting war with China over it. DYT is another matter entirely. Not only does it serve as part of the chain of islands helping to block China's easy access to the rest of the Pacific, it also holds significant economic interest for Japan as a marker from which to extend its EEZ, and as a political marker for the hardliners of Japan to test any Japanese leadership in regards to their 'patriotic' credentials. Sailing at will to and from DYT is also not grounds for opening fire unless you're delusional. OTOH, attempting to occupy land that is currently controlled by Japan is certainly grounds for war. Only the most biased or dimwitted are unable to see the difference between sailing through DYT territorial waters and trying to take actual permanent control of a piece of property administered by Japan. And if China was as unconcerned with international opinion as some of you, it would not have even cared to confirm or deny Japan's claim to being lit up by Chinese radar. But in fact pretexts and excuses are highly important in the international arena (hello Gulf of Tonkin). If China plays its cards right and correctly fails to heed the idiot voices of its bellicose nationalists, Japan will have no pretext for anything and China will be able to sit back, enjoy its current advantage, and wait for Japan to do something stupid. But it seems far too many people would prefer that China be stupid first.

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

In this dispute, Chinese leadership is now really boxed in, their only initiative they can pull off is to keep those hothead Hong Kong activists from making another trip, while US and Japan occupy all the high ground, and facing increasing pressure domestically for being too lame.

There're very little cards the Chinese leadership can play, they got a pretty lousy deck of card if you ask me.

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Mysterre said:

Of course they haven't. Your overinflation of the importance of Scarborough Shoal is unconvincing. Japan and the US have ZERO geostrategic interest in this rock and will certainly not risk a shooting war with China over it. DYT is another matter entirely. Not only does it serve as part of the chain of islands helping to block China's easy access to the rest of the Pacific, it also holds significant economic interest for Japan as a marker from which to extend its EEZ, and as a political marker for the hardliners of Japan to test any Japanese leadership in regards to their 'patriotic' credentials. Sailing at will to and from DYT is also not grounds for opening fire unless you're delusional. OTOH, attempting to occupy land that is currently controlled by Japan is certainly grounds for war. Only the most biased or dimwitted are unable to see the difference between sailing through DYT territorial waters and trying to take actual permanent control of a piece of property administered by Japan. And if China was as unconcerned with international opinion as some of you, it would not have even cared to confirm or deny Japan's claim to being lit up by Chinese radar. ............

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The shoal is of course not as important as DYT but important enough for USN to send in carriers & nuke subs there during the face off with PLAN, not to mention numerous tough talks. Anyway, you're free to deflate the importance of the shoal to fit your argument. Let's just say I'm not surprised US fanboys would deflate the importance of the shoal after PLAN has taken effective control, not before.
Not telling China what to do, just saying I'm confident China will only land on the island when it's ready to deal with the response, whenever that might be.
I never said China is unconcerned with world response, what I did was to correct the bad habit of some to see western response as representative of the world.

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Schumacher said:

The shoal is of course not as important as DYT but important enough for USN to send in carriers & nuke subs there during the face off with PLAN, not to mention numerous tough talks. Anyway, you're free to deflate the importance of the shoal to fit your argument. Let's just say I'm not surprised US fanboys would deflate the importance of the shoal after PLAN has taken effective control, not before.

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You confuse me for somebody else. Perhaps you can point to where I hyped up the importance of Scarborough Shoal prior to the PLAN taking control, hmmm? No? Yeah, I didn't think so.

Schumacher said:

Not telling China what to do, just saying I'm confident China will only land on the island when it's ready to deal with the response, whenever that might be.

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"Whenever that might be"??? LOL that sounds like the vague talk of a politician unwilling to deal with conviction. Care to place a wager on it, since you sound so confident? I'll wager real money that China will not land on any of the DYT islands in an officially sanctioned capacity (e.g. no "civilian law enforcement") within the duration of this current flareup or one year, whichever is later. $100, PayPal. In?

Schumacher said:

I never said China is unconcerned with world response, what I did was to correct the bad habit of some to see western response as representative of the world.

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Another straw man. You love those, I can see.

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Jeff Head said:

If China moved to occupy the islands and did so backing it up with armed force, South Korea would certainly side with Japan and the US, so would the Philipines, so would Vietnam, Australia, obviously Japan, Signapore, and India would indicate its supports as well.

And...if it was as I say, the Chinese landing on the islands to establsh an outpost or settlement and backing it up with armed force, I believe you would see the ROC also turn away from China and denounce that move in those circumstances.

Best not to risk it, especially when there is really no need to do so at this point.

I do not believe Russia would act materially either way in such a situation, and of course North Korea would side with China.

Anyhow, that is just my own opinion on the matter. Nothing more.

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I seriously doubt South Korea would side with Japan. I also think you'd be surprised at Taiwan's reaction. As for the rest of the countries you listed, they don't really matter in this conflict.

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Mysterre said:

Beating your chest and trying to sound like some kind of simple, brave man standing up for Chinese pride earns you exactly ZERO points here. Catch up and get a clue. Everybody here agrees that DYT by historical right belongs to China. This does NOT mean I have to stupidly agree with you that China needs to send some missiles into other countries that don't side with China as some surreal act of 'self-defense' (what a ridiculous joke), or that China's current intrests are best served by sending people to try and physically try to wrest control of DYT from Japan, or that Japan and the US will fold like lawn chairs because China is so great and awesome and powerful now that they will lay down and kowtow instead of respond militarily with overwhelming force against a Chinese incursion against DYT. If nothing further is done to escalate this situation, China has already won this round. Japan's "nationalization" of DYT has done absolutely nothing for them politically, but instead has given China the perfect excuse to start routine sea and air patrols in close proximity to DYT, something they have not done before. Instead of uselessly chestthumping, browbeating, and grandstanding, people would do better to calm down and realize the situation as it stands now has actually improved China's position wrt the DYT territorial dispute.

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If "chest thumping" as you presume so doesn't work to "physically to wrest contol of the DYT from Japan", than of course more force has to be use ensure the sovereignty of China is safe. IF Japan knew this is hurting them politically, than why is the Abe administration kept doing it? What is their gain for this?

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Mysterre said:

What the tart are you screaming about yourself? When did I deny that DYT is a "Chinese territory"? In fact, instead of ludicrously jumping into the middle of the discussion without reading what I have previously written, you should read the previous posts and try to catch up to where everybody else is before making these ridiculous conclusions.

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You're the one being dramatic about the issue here. All a sudden a China rise in power got you haters all worked up for any excuse to defame them.

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Equation said:

If "chest thumping" as you presume so doesn't work to "physically to wrest contol of the DYT from Japan", than of course more force has to be use ensure the sovereignty of China is safe. IF Japan knew this is hurting them politically, than why is the Abe administration kept doing it? What is their gain for this?

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Playing the "China is bogey man" card helps winning elections, as well as pushing forward other agendas such as changing Constitutions, at least for now that's what the right wingers in Japan now aiming for.

For now, screwing China at every turn won't hurt Japan, at least not enough to make any repercussion that'd make the Japanese public to think twice in playing along.

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Mysterre said:

First of all, DF-21D is an antiship weapon, hardly something used in self-defense. Second, using such a weapon to intidimate smaller nations is stupid, useless, non-defensive, and as I said, will achieve exactly opposite of the intended effect.

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Who said anything about "intimidate smaller nations"? I only addressing it to any potential aggressor of China, meaning it could be anybody. Quit trying to put words that steers away from the conversation.

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

MwRYum said:

Playing the "China is bogey man" card helps winning elections, as well as pushing forward other agendas such as changing Constitutions, at least for now that's what the right wingers in Japan now aiming for.

For now, screwing China at every turn won't hurt Japan, at least not enough to make any repercussion that'd make the Japanese public to think twice in playing along.

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Yes I agreed, but this isn't exactly helping the relationship between China and Japan people to people relationship. Why is China the new "Bogey man" is what I want to know?