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Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Unlike the US the PLAN does not seem to want to use Type 055s for long distance patrols on their own like the US does with the Burke DDGs. They just seem to be used as air defense cover for the carrier battle groups like the Ticos. Still I kind of wonder why they aren't building more Type 055s at least to provide air cover for the LHDs.

Anyway, just think of it this way, the Type 055 basically matches the Ticos, and the Type 052D the Arleigh Burke in PLAN doctrine. A lot of long distance missions are also done with smaller frigates which the US currently lacks. And the area of coverage of operations of the PLAN is much smaller than the US Navy's. In short the average Chinese PLAN ship doing the same mission has lower displacement than a US one. Partly because the Chinese go in much shorter range missions on average.

This is going to get lopsided as the Arleigh Burke Flight III larger ships come in and the Ticos get phased out, plus the new US Constellation frigates start showing up. But for now it is how things are.
More likely, it mirrors the Japanese. With the 055s taking the same role as Maya class DDGs while 052Ds take the role of Asahi class.

Both fleets are primarily defensive navies with some focus on anti submarine needs. Lengthened 052s can carry more helicopters for asw than normal frigates of that size. They also have very powerful radars that can help plug the gap of the 055s which are main line area defense destroyers.

Obviously the PLAN is overall larger, more capable, has proper naval aviation capability, and far more LHDs even. But the core idea of having a large and small DDG is quite reminiscent of the IJN.

The 054 concept is kinda similar to the US LCS concept except China did it first and as such had the time to adjust and get better results with the program. Dubious small ships that work best in ASW and for patrolling during peacetime...
 

davidau

Senior Member
Registered Member
More likely, it mirrors the Japanese. With the 055s taking the same role as Maya class DDGs while 052Ds take the role of Asahi class.

Both fleets are primarily defensive navies with some focus on anti submarine needs. Lengthened 052s can carry more helicopters for asw than normal frigates of that size. They also have very powerful radars that can help plug the gap of the 055s which are main line area defense destroyers.

Obviously the PLAN is overall larger, more capable, has proper naval aviation capability, and far more LHDs even. But the core idea of having a large and small DDG is quite reminiscent of the IJN.

The 054 concept is kinda similar to the US LCS concept except China did it first and as such had the time to adjust and get better results with the program. Dubious small ships that work best in ASW and for patrolling during peacetime...
China has her own military philosophy, why should China mirror what the japs are doing?
 

kriss

Junior Member
Registered Member
Similar-ish considerations, you could also say its the other way around if that sounds better.
I would hardly call "bigger ship with smaller ship" a similarity. If anything in PLAN mirrors Asahi it would be 054A and you don't need me to point out they serve in very different roles.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Colonel
Registered Member
I would hardly call "bigger ship with smaller ship" a similarity. If anything in PLAN mirrors Asahi it would be 054A and you don't need me to point out they serve in very different roles.
Curious to know - How does Asahi and Mogami differ from each other in terms of roles, and how is the 054A seen in this equation?
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Curious to know - How does Asahi and Mogami differ from each other in terms of roles, and how is the 054A seen in this equation?

Matching the Akizuki and Asahi class to the 052D is a far sketch in terms of role. The 052D is primarily a long range air defense ship with long range antiship capabilities, even if it does have a modern ASW suite. The Akizuki-Asahi class is short to medium range air defense with ESSM, with primary ASW, ASROC. In terms of VLS, the 052D has 64 and the Akizuki-Asahi class has 32. For me, the Akizuki-Asahi class is sitting where the projected Type 054B---note I said 054B, not A---might be sitting.

The Mogami I am not sure, as it has not fitted its VLS yet. If its supposed to be Mk.41 with ESSM, they would already have fitted it when it was still at the shipyard. So for me, the ship released but still waiting for its VLS suggests to me it waiting for the successful development of an indigenous VLS+SAM+ASROC system with the Mk.41 option as a backup in case the indigenous development fails. In terms of roles, it looks to me the Mogami has a strong overlap with the Asahi class. The main difference is that the Asahi class is somewhat bigger and might have better longer ranged sea worthiness, but more costly to produce whereas the Mogami might be able to do 80 to 90% of the Asahi and cheap and easy enough to build over 20 of them, the essential advantage of being a frigate.

Sorry this is a bit off tangent from the main topic.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
The Mogami I am not sure, as it has not fitted its VLS yet. If its supposed to be Mk.41 with ESSM, they would already have fitted it when it was still at the shipyard. So for me, the ship released but still waiting for its VLS suggests to me it waiting for the successful development of an indigenous VLS+SAM+ASROC system with the Mk.41 option as a backup in case the indigenous development fails. In terms of roles, it looks to me the Mogami has a strong overlap with the Asahi class. The main difference is that the Asahi class is somewhat bigger and might have better longer ranged sea worthiness, but more costly to produce whereas the Mogami might be able to do 80 to 90% of the Asahi and cheap and easy enough to build over 20 of them, the essential advantage of being a frigate.

I agree with most of what you wrote except this part.

I think the absence of Mk-41 on Mogami is less a reflection of an intent to wait for a domestic VLS and associated weapons, and more of a function of general FFBNW impetus (costs, and intentions for the ship to be able to operate in a cheaper and less combat capable manner initially).


I'll move various posts to a different thread.
 

kriss

Junior Member
Registered Member
Curious to know - How does Asahi and Mogami differ from each other in terms of roles, and how is the 054A seen in this equation?
General speaking a major JMSDF fleet would composed of 1 aegis DDG , 1 supporting DD, 5 general purpose DD, and 1 DDH.

Asahi and Akizuki before it take the supporting DD role as a close escort of flagship (Kongo, Atago, Maya) which could be considered a lesser aegis destroyer if you like. While other even lesser DD do the chores like ASW, picketing, etc.

Mogami on the other hand is a new attempt to achieve "Akizuki capability" with a frigate sized hull which is cheaper and takes less crew. Also unlike Asahi, Mogami would be part of auxiliary fleet instead of one of main fleet (hence a frigate). So it's basically giving some upgrades to second line flotillas.

Both of them are vastly different with 054A in it's role, capability, or how they are structured into their respective navy but it's the closest counterpart you'd get unless you count some really old ship.
 
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