J-35A fighter (PLAAF) + FC-31 thread

[sf7pakistan]

Can you please tell us more about payment plans that Pakistan typically gets from China for gov't to gov't defense deals, and/or how the PAF's J-10C fleet was financed?

If you have any articles or papers on this topic in Urdu (or English), please don't hesitate to share!

Not trying to impose, but a better understanding of how Pakistan finances and pays for its defense imports may shed some light on just when and/or under what conditions the PAF will officially induct the J-35 into service.



Chinese sources have compared the HQ-19 to the THAAD and the proposed THAAD-ER; and IIRC, it was in fact designed and engineered with defeating Indian IRBMs like the Agni III and IV as a baseline requirement.

So the HQ-19 can definitely add to Pakistani AD capabilities in a meaningful way.

The problem is that it's an expensive system, so it's going to be tough to acquire enough batteries — even if localized production is made possible down the road — to safeguard Pakistan's many strategic C2 nodes, special munitions depots, major airbases, etc.

I'm sure that maybe this is mentioned in articles and such but from what I've been able to gather, the payment plan is more or less "pay us when you can". Often times part of that payment too is either deferred or waived and that is on top of the price that we get on the stuff which I've heard is usually discounted. Or it may be that the Chinese are given concessions and preferential treatment elsewhere in other deals. The gist of it is that we're not under any significant pressure to pay for this stuff.

I have no reason to disbelieve that an arrangement such as this exists bearing in mind what I've heard and seen but most of this stuff is not reported upon and considered to be an open secret.

 

[sf7pakistan]

Unrealistic.
Part I guess is lessons of last escalation, part is preparing for next round.
Both sides taken notes, and India by default is >10 times more prosperous, and the difference only grows with every year. Pakistan needs to be proactive at least in the air at this ratio, otherwise it will be like with the navy.

Part is arguably politics - 3 Jins of Pakistan aren't exactly popular, and India plus Chinese equipment gave a lot of needed legitimate patriotic support to the government.

Buying more of even better victorious tech is now a simple straightforward way to farm popular support. Courtesy of India.

If not offensive then I think China is looking at making Pakistan maybe more proactive in these conflicts and giving her stuff that would serve well as a conventional deterrent. HQ-19 if coming is a big deal as it skirts the line between a conventional and a strategic support asset. PAF seems to be on track at becoming an all AESA force in the coming decade or so but yeah the around 200 3rd gen jets are a headache, as is the Block 1 Jeff early examples of which would be nearing retirement by then and the F-16s which needs US consent to be upgraded.

There are elements of domestic political, bilateral, foreign policy and military policy posturing in all of this but none of this sale seems to be useless or bloated.

 

[Hermes]

Gov of Pakistan official Twitter handle confirms order of

- 40x J-35
- KJ-500 AWACS
- HQ-19 ADS

In a deal worth $3.7bn

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1930903310384439604

40x J-35, KJ-500 and HQ-19 confirmed by Gov of Pakistan official handle as being offered

 

[siegecrossbow]

Yeah, that'd be 92 million per plane if there was no AEW or SAM systems involved. Even if just token AEW/SAM quantities are involved, J35AE is probably in the 80 million range. That's cheaper than USAF pays for its F35. We don't know but it's possible said money also includes at least some initial support or ancillary equipment.

Basically Chinese Air Force heads believe everything on the Lockheed marketing brochure about the F-35, including the pricing which is actually deceptive because it doesn’t include many essential systems that allow the aircraft to be combat effective. They essentially forced SAC to make a plane that matches the pricing and performance of a fantasy variant of F-35.

 

[doggydogdo]

3.7 billion for all that is insanely good bargain, that's not buying aircrafts that's buying an air force.

3.7 billion is the debt relief and not how much Chinese equipment is going to cost.

 

[leonzzzz]

Basically Chinese Air Force heads believe everything on the Lockheed marketing brochure about the F-35, including the pricing which is actually deceptive because it doesn’t include many essential systems that allow the aircraft to be combat effective. They essentially forced SAC to make a plane that matches the pricing and performance of a fantasy variant of F-35.

"No one can be better than my fantasized version of you, even the true version of you cannot."

 

[Hermes]

Basically Chinese Air Force heads believe everything on the Lockheed marketing brochure about the F-35, including the pricing which is actually deceptive because it doesn’t include many essential systems that allow the aircraft to be combat effective. They essentially forced SAC to make a plane that matches the pricing and performance of a fantasy variant of F-35.

F-35 doesn’t even compare to J-35 in a lot of aspects. J-35 is superior in most aspects. The only thing we could argue would be F-35s systems but given the performance of Chinese systems recently, and that the J-35 would be a next gen aircraft with many newly developed avionics, I am pretty sure J-35 would be in a different league.

 

[qwerty3173]

F-35 doesn’t even compare to J-35 in a lot of aspects. J-35 is superior in most aspects. The only thing we could argue would be F-35s systems but given the performance of Chinese systems recently, and that the J-35 would be a next gen aircraft with many newly developed avionics, I am pretty sure J-35 would be in a different league.

The sole advantage of f-35 perhaps is its ability to carry large-diameter bombs, but I would say that its way overkill using a stealth jet in ordinary bombing.

 

[Temstar]

India paid $8.8B for 36 Rafales in 2016.

Now another $7.5B for 24 Rafale M.

So lndians paid $16B for a 4th gen French fighter that PAF's Chinese 4th gen has already shot down.

While Pakistan pays a 1/4th of that for 5th Gen and the AWACs on top of everything?!

Is this true? It will tilt the balance completely on the Subcontinent.

Well there's political benefit in equipping Pakistan with 5th gen and associated system:

The ideal outcome: India is sufficient intimidated that they don't risk further skirmishes against Pakistan, giving Pakistan breathing room and potentially bad procurement decision at IAF when they panic and buy things to try to even the tech advantage

The less than ideal outcome: India is not sufficiently intimidated and more skirmishes happen. By all account recent events proved PAF is capable of absorbing advanced platform and use them well, so chances are IAF gets smacked again and you have a huge advertisement in front of the whole world of J-35AE defeating Su-57E or maybe even F-35. Imagine J-35AE sales after that.

I know Russia has been making noise of making Su-57E available to India source code and all, but after seeing this news I question if that's really a good idea if you care about your plane's reputation. You know damn well what Indians will do with your 5th gen once they get their hands on them.

 

[sutton999]

What if China and US made a deal to break India.

Since both US and China need each other, but 3rd power India / Russia needs to be dealt with?