J-20... The New Generation Fighter

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Londo Molari

Junior Member
Re: New Generation Fighter

A website about the Rafale's successful performance against the F-16E, Eurofighter, and F-22 at the UAE air competition:
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. In other similar news, the Rafale clearly beat the Eurofighter in BVR combat and WVR combat. The Rafale held its own against the F-22 (draw).
...
I have read contrasting news of the same UAE air competition.
...
My conclusion: Haha, typical military propaganda. So little news, but what leaks out is unreliable. All about being secret and successful!
Exactly. For example, Somebody told me about this french aviation magazine article which said that the French owned the Eurofighters, but got owned by the F-22's.

Supposedly the Rafales used their radars, while the F-22's kept their radars off. The Rafale's radars were unable to detect the F-22's, but the F-22 used its passive systems to detect the Rafale's emissions and target them precisely enough for AMRAAM launches. The Rafale's famed SPECTRA self-defense system failed to do anything against the F-22. If you believe the article, and if that's what it indeed says:

2010020571d5258aaebc5b5.jpg
 
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Infra_Man99

Banned Idiot
Re: New Generation Fighter

Exactly. For example, Somebody told me about this french aviation magazine article which said that the French owned the Eurofighters, but got owned by the F-22's.

Supposedly the Rafales used their radars, while the F-22's kept their radars off. The Rafale's radars were unable to detect the F-22's, but the F-22 used its passive systems to detect the Rafale's emissions and target them precisely enough for AMRAAM launches. The Rafale's famed SPECTRA self-defense system failed to do anything against the F-22. If you believe the article, and if that's what it indeed says:

[qimg]http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/6559/2010020571d5258aaebc5b5.jpg[/qimg]

I have read the same things. I read various scenarios, but I still don't know what is real (damn military secrecy).

Story A: I read the Rafale and F-22 only engaged in gunfights with NO radar, and the F-22 shot down 1 to 2 Rafale jets, but the Rafale jets fought to a draw or defeated 5 F-22 jets or 5 pairs of F-22 jets.

Story B: I read the Rafale tried to use its advance radar to secretly track the F-22, but the Rafale's radar had problems tracking the stealthy F-22, and the F-22 was able to passively track the Rafale's radar emissions, so the F-22 successfully fired a missile at the Rafale.

Story C: I read the F-22 dominated the Rafale and Eurofighter in BVR and WVR competitions. The F-22 mauled the stinkin' French frog and humiliated the Eurotrash (something like that, haha).

Story D: I read the more affordable Rafale and Eurofighter held their own against the more expensive F-22 in BVR and WVR competitions.


I haven't read if the competition rules are realistic or fair. DACT can easily favor or disfavor an aircraft based on the competition rules.
 

70092

Junior Member
Re: New Generation Fighter

I'm talking about an interview from Kanwa. I think it is very likely this aircraft will be an improved J-10 striving to approach the core capabilities of western 4th G fighter. It will be China's 4th "try".

Pinkov does not know anything more about Chinese military techs than the average Chinese military fan who have spent 2+ years on internet.

The worse part is he is nicknamed in China as the Russian military's sellsman for his extremely bias towards Russia, and his extremely bias against China (He claimed he is an ethnic minority in S.China, and get some mistreatment in China before he went to Japan and then Canada, despite of how much he hate China, ironically the exact reason he can make a living is because China, yes, he hate China but depend on China to feed himself).

All his knowledge about Chinese's 4th genearation fighters are sourced from Chinese internet BBS, and of cause, cooked with his own huge personal bias, in the case of 4th generation fighter, he has already made a joke out of himself:

During last year's airforce day, Chinese's Airforce's vice commander-in-chief's openly claimed that China will field at 4th generation fighter within 8-10 years and will conduct the maiden flight of it very soon (another Chinese general in another TV interview at that time gave the time frame for maiden flight as either in 2010 or 2011).

Obviously the Chinese generals public claims made him lost a lot of sleeps (Chinese generals/politicans at that level wont talks about some project's progress like that unless they are 120% sure its likely the case, since in Chinese culture, if you give out a timeframe but fail to deliever on time, you will get all the blames no matter actually how aggressive the time frame you give is actually is, but if you give out a timeframe and can deliever earlier than it supposed to be, then you get all the prasises everyone will praise you are competent, etc).

Thats why he even went as crazy as writting an article to swear or curse China 2 or 3 days later than the Chinese general's public claims: He swear that if China can field a real 4th generation fighter before 2025, he will stop sell his magizine in China and by his definition, anything below this standard is not considered as a real 4th generation fighter in his "swearing" article:

RCS must smaller than 0.0001 m^2
Must be able to do supercrusie and must use engine with a thrust/weight ratio of 10+

You know, by his definition, F-22 is not a real 4th generation fighter since F119's T/W ratio is only 9+, and F-22's RCS is most likely more than 0.0001m^2 according to most third-party studies.

And we can forget F-35 now, it, at best, can be count as a 3.5 generation by his standards.

And most funny part is that he finally bite the hand who feed him, the russians:

PAK-FA's front RCS is definitiely way way more than 0.0001m^2, actually according to the India's source, its RCS is likley around 0.5 m^2 at front view, due to the arrange of its engines.

As for PAK-FA's engines, there is too little to tell at the moment.

So by the standards he defined in his "swearing" article about Chinese-wont-field-a-true-4th-generation-fighter-or-I-will-stop-selling-my-magizine-in-China/HK, no one have ever fielded a 4th generations, certainly not the russians.

He is just as bias and childish as that.

Thats why many suspect he get money from russians, and he is actually a russian's sellsman with a typical sellsman's big mouth, thats why almost every military fan in China like to make a little fun out of him nowadays.
 
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70092

Junior Member
Re: New Generation Fighter

Some other interesting news about the next generation fighter, not J-XX, but some near-space military vehicle:

From a magazine run by China aviation group (this is the state-owned group that is in charge of all military-related aircrafts/space vehicles's R&D and manufacturing, SAC/CAC, 611/603/601 are all owned by it):

The article describes 611th institute (the one who are in charge of the J-XX) being the leader in the field of developing near-space vehicle.

From a news paper run by China aviation groups:

This article is an interview of the vice general manager of the China aviation groups, the vice general mentioned several key research areas currently recieved big investment in their group, includes next generation combat aircraft, new weapon system, new electronics, and he specificially emphasis there an area called: near-space combat vehicle, which could attack both satellite and ground targets, aiming at destorying enemies' command and information nodes/centers in ground and in space.

He believes this is key of the next generation warfare.

Source (in Chinese):
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Last edited:

challenge

Banned Idiot
Re: New Generation Fighter

乌克兰协助中国研制成功四代战机用发动机


  一些乌克兰消息人士向本刊记者透露,他们已开始与中国官员进行初步讨论--讨论结果可能是一个双边的飞机发动机研发项目。

  这些消息人士说,乌克兰将协助中国研发一种新型的15吨推力级加力式涡轮风扇战斗机发动机 这一项目将以伊夫琴科一进步公司的AI一9500F型发动机--一种10吨到11吨推力级的加力式涡轮风扇发动机--为基础,虽然乌克兰尚未研制出能用于战斗机的现代大推力涡轮风扇发动机。

  最终,将与中国合作生产伊夫琴科一进步公司的 AI-222-25型加力式涡轮风扇发动机,双方可能还会合作研制一种新型的12吨推力级大涵道比涡轮风扇发动机。

  一些乌克兰官员和中国航空工业集团公司参加莫斯科航展的代表,证实了此前关于正就中国购买合作生产AI-222-25型发动机的许可证进行谈判的报道。中国人说,这种发动机已经用于L-15高级教练机的样机。乌克兰消息人士预计,L-15将成为中国空军主要的新一代高级教练机。

  乌克兰消息人士说,新的大涵道比涡轮风扇发动机将用于中国设计的新型运输机。而可能研发的15吨推力级发动机将很可能用于中国第四代和第五代战斗机。

  一名中国消息人士说,可能会以"峨眉"命名的AI-222-25型发动机项目将由608研究所与乌克兰合作开展。这使中国有可能会生产两个系列的先进涡轮风扇发动机。预计将以12吨推力级的"太行"加力式涡轮风扇发动机为基础,研发一种新型的大涵道比涡轮风扇发动机和一种新型的15吨推力级加力式涡轮风扇发动机。

  提到各军种主战装备的心脏——发动机,几十年来都是中国武器的薄弱环节,只有航太和导弹的发动机例外。非专业人士往往感到不解的是,中国研制的大功率火箭发动机早达到世界先进水平,可以将导弹射到万公里外,可以将载人飞船送上太空,为何自制的飞机、坦克、舰艇的发动机却长期落后,甚至民用汽车的发动机也比奔驰、丰田、福特的动力技术落后几十年呢?其实内行者都知道,这里的关键是一个材料技术问题,由于火箭、导弹的发动机只需一次性使用,要求标准反而不高,而战机、舰艇、车辆的发动机却要几千次甚至上万次使用,因而研制这类优质的发动机的难度要高于研制导弹、火箭。

  航空发动机是所有动力装置中技术含量最高、制造难度最大的。二次大战末期诞生的喷气式发动机将人类航空事业推进到超音速时代,要让流动的空气经过几米长、直径不到两米的发动机产生几千公斤甚至上万公斤的推力,是一件极难之事。世界上制造战斗机的国家有十几个,此前却只有美、俄、英、法这四国能独立研制航空发动机,日本产的主力战机F一2一直买美国发动机,台湾过去“自产”的IDF“经国”号战斗机更是美国发动机和其它配件的组装品,瑞典研制的享誉世界的JAS一39“鹰狮”战斗机使用的则是英国发动机。

  90年代以前,中国战机的发动机都是苏联50年代航空发动机的仿制品,90年代研制成功的海军战斗轰炸机“飞豹”使用的仍是英国70年代所产“斯贝” 发动机的仿制品。近年沈阳飞机公司所产仿苏一27的歼一11,成都飞机公司研制的外销型FC一1“枭龙”战斗机。还有国产最新型的歼一10,使用的也都是从俄罗斯进口的发动机。

  现代战机作为一个由数以万计部件组成的武器,衡量其战斗机的主要标准性能有两项:一是火控系统特别是电子装置的水平;二是发动机的质量。想使这两项达到先进水平,关键在于国家的电子工业和机械制造工业水平。尤其是航空发动机的制造,更是国家机械工业水平的一个标志,空军战斗机的研制能力也是由此决定。

  新中国成立之前,中国不仅没有电子工业,机械制造工业也等于空白。民间曾宣传过一次大战期间便制造万吨轮、抗战时有国产飞机,1946年天津造出首辆国内汽车的新闻,其实都只是造了一个金属外壳(材料还大多为外购),发动机无不依赖进口。

  新中国成立后,解放军为保卫领空和参加朝鲜战争的急需,购买过几千架苏联飞机,不过当时伟人就立足于长远,决定建立自己独立的机械工业,而不是长久依赖外购。第一个五年计划期间,中国沈阳依靠引进苏联技术建立了航空发动机生产线,于1956年仿制出当时具有世界先进水平的喷气机全部零部件,制造出仿米格一17的歼一5型战斗机,在当时还算是世界先进水平。1961年,中国建立了第一航空动力研究所,开始自行研制航空发动机。然而由于60年代初苏联援助中断,国内的技术基础十分落后,加上政治运动干扰,40多年间一直未能研制出一种可以投入批量生产的航空发动机,只能对过去的苏援产品进行小小的改进和修补。

  这样,中国至90年代初自产战机的动力系统基本上还停留在苏联50年代的水平,与世界先进水平的差距愈拉愈大,就此不得不引进俄罗斯的苏一27战斗机作为应急之用,随后又以重金引进了其生产线。如今的俄罗斯已不同于当年的苏联,对华军售时着重从保持技术优势和商业利益考虑,对发动机技术有很大保留且要价甚高。俄方向立足于对外军贸的“枭龙”战机出售发动机时,也曾提出不得销往其投标的国家。发动机又是战机磨损最快且经常需要维修更换的部分,如不能解决发动机这一“心脏病”,中国战机就会始终受制于它国。

  “太行”发动机研制成功,工程技术人员们18年努力攻关终于有了圆满成果。对于中国空军来说,新型战机终于有了自己的心脏。据报道,总体比较,“太行”发动机的性能还要稍高于苏一27装配的AL-31F,同装配美国F一15、F一16的F一100、F一110不相上下,这标志着中国航空发动机行业完成了由仿制、测绘仿制向自主研制、自行发展的转变过程,继美、俄之后成为进入大推力发动机研制领域的国家。

  中国新型发动机研制成功带来的直接影响,便是俄罗斯近来大幅度放宽了对华军售的限制,要价也比过去降低。据俄国传媒报道,今年与中国已经签署一项价值 3亿美元的出售100套AL一31发动机的合同,这也是俄罗斯国防产品出口公司(Rosoboronexpon)本年内最大一宗武器交易。此外,国内为 “枭龙”所研制的“天山”发动机质量也将超过俄罗斯售给该机的RD93型,于是俄方向中巴联合推出外销的“枭龙”出口发动机也变得爽快,而且放弃了外销附加条件。

  看到中国已经能自产新型发动机,俄罗斯降价出卖原有产品是很自然的现象。中国目前还要购买较大数量的俄制发动机,除了照顾两国的战略合作伙伴关系,也有国内新产品尚需一个调试和改进过程的原因。在这段不长的过渡阶段中,继续使用国际上有声誉而且很成熟的俄制产品仍不失为一种比较适宜的选择。

  在“太行”发动机研制之初,当时的空军副司令员林虎就提出:“我们买飞机还是为了促进自己发展。”时任国防科工委主任丁衡高更强调: “动力再不抓是不行的;现在这代科技骨干如果不用,以后都老化了,再也接不上茬了。”当时的中央军委副主席杨尚昆确定一条原则:“空军要依靠自己的航空工业;应付急需、少量购买飞机不要影响自己研制。”作出决策的这些高层领导在位时的决策使“太行”发动机研制得以稳步进行,对此航空界知情者还是感念不忘。

  从90年代初至今的十几年里,中国空军在电子设备、发动机技术落后制约着新战机自研的窘境中,花费成百亿美元购买了俄罗斯的数百架苏一27、苏一30 重型战斗机,这在空军发展史上只应视为一个过渡阶段。如今国内电子资讯工业已经有了飞跃发展,某些领域已超过俄罗斯,自研第三代战机发动机的问题又已解决,下一步以较低成本大批量生产新型战斗机便可实现,空军自60年代中后期以来机型严重落后的局面将彻底改变。

Ukraine to assist china in developing gen. 4th fighter engine.
 

victtodd

New Member
Re: New Generation Fighter

乌克兰协助中国研制成功四代战机用发动机


  一些乌克兰消息人士向本刊记者透露,他们已开始与中国官员进行初步讨论--讨论结果可能是一个双边的飞机发动机研发项目。

  这些消息人士说,乌克兰将协助中国研发一种新型的15吨推力级加力式涡轮风扇战斗机发动机 这一项目将以伊夫琴科一进步公司的AI一9500F型发动机--一种10吨到11吨推力级的加力式涡轮风扇发动机--为基础,虽然乌克兰尚未研制出能用于战斗机的现代大推力涡轮风扇发动机。

  最终,将与中国合作生产伊夫琴科一进步公司的 AI-222-25型加力式涡轮风扇发动机,双方可能还会合作研制一种新型的12吨推力级大涵道比涡轮风扇发动机。

  一些乌克兰官员和中国航空工业集团公司参加莫斯科航展的代表,证实了此前关于正就中国购买合作生产AI-222-25型发动机的许可证进行谈判的报道。中国人说,这种发动机已经用于L-15高级教练机的样机。乌克兰消息人士预计,L-15将成为中国空军主要的新一代高级教练机。

  乌克兰消息人士说,新的大涵道比涡轮风扇发动机将用于中国设计的新型运输机。而可能研发的15吨推力级发动机将很可能用于中国第四代和第五代战斗机。

  一名中国消息人士说,可能会以"峨眉"命名的AI-222-25型发动机项目将由608研究所与乌克兰合作开展。这使中国有可能会生产两个系列的先进涡轮风扇发动机。预计将以12吨推力级的"太行"加力式涡轮风扇发动机为基础,研发一种新型的大涵道比涡轮风扇发动机和一种新型的15吨推力级加力式涡轮风扇发动机。

  提到各军种主战装备的心脏——发动机,几十年来都是中国武器的薄弱环节,只有航太和导弹的发动机例外。非专业人士往往感到不解的是,中国研制的大功率火箭发动机早达到世界先进水平,可以将导弹射到万公里外,可以将载人飞船送上太空,为何自制的飞机、坦克、舰艇的发动机却长期落后,甚至民用汽车的发动机也比奔驰、丰田、福特的动力技术落后几十年呢?其实内行者都知道,这里的关键是一个材料技术问题,由于火箭、导弹的发动机只需一次性使用,要求标准反而不高,而战机、舰艇、车辆的发动机却要几千次甚至上万次使用,因而研制这类优质的发动机的难度要高于研制导弹、火箭。

  航空发动机是所有动力装置中技术含量最高、制造难度最大的。二次大战末期诞生的喷气式发动机将人类航空事业推进到超音速时代,要让流动的空气经过几米长、直径不到两米的发动机产生几千公斤甚至上万公斤的推力,是一件极难之事。世界上制造战斗机的国家有十几个,此前却只有美、俄、英、法这四国能独立研制航空发动机,日本产的主力战机F一2一直买美国发动机,台湾过去“自产”的IDF“经国”号战斗机更是美国发动机和其它配件的组装品,瑞典研制的享誉世界的JAS一39“鹰狮”战斗机使用的则是英国发动机。

  90年代以前,中国战机的发动机都是苏联50年代航空发动机的仿制品,90年代研制成功的海军战斗轰炸机“飞豹”使用的仍是英国70年代所产“斯贝” 发动机的仿制品。近年沈阳飞机公司所产仿苏一27的歼一11,成都飞机公司研制的外销型FC一1“枭龙”战斗机。还有国产最新型的歼一10,使用的也都是从俄罗斯进口的发动机。

  现代战机作为一个由数以万计部件组成的武器,衡量其战斗机的主要标准性能有两项:一是火控系统特别是电子装置的水平;二是发动机的质量。想使这两项达到先进水平,关键在于国家的电子工业和机械制造工业水平。尤其是航空发动机的制造,更是国家机械工业水平的一个标志,空军战斗机的研制能力也是由此决定。

  新中国成立之前,中国不仅没有电子工业,机械制造工业也等于空白。民间曾宣传过一次大战期间便制造万吨轮、抗战时有国产飞机,1946年天津造出首辆国内汽车的新闻,其实都只是造了一个金属外壳(材料还大多为外购),发动机无不依赖进口。

  新中国成立后,解放军为保卫领空和参加朝鲜战争的急需,购买过几千架苏联飞机,不过当时伟人就立足于长远,决定建立自己独立的机械工业,而不是长久依赖外购。第一个五年计划期间,中国沈阳依靠引进苏联技术建立了航空发动机生产线,于1956年仿制出当时具有世界先进水平的喷气机全部零部件,制造出仿米格一17的歼一5型战斗机,在当时还算是世界先进水平。1961年,中国建立了第一航空动力研究所,开始自行研制航空发动机。然而由于60年代初苏联援助中断,国内的技术基础十分落后,加上政治运动干扰,40多年间一直未能研制出一种可以投入批量生产的航空发动机,只能对过去的苏援产品进行小小的改进和修补。

  这样,中国至90年代初自产战机的动力系统基本上还停留在苏联50年代的水平,与世界先进水平的差距愈拉愈大,就此不得不引进俄罗斯的苏一27战斗机作为应急之用,随后又以重金引进了其生产线。如今的俄罗斯已不同于当年的苏联,对华军售时着重从保持技术优势和商业利益考虑,对发动机技术有很大保留且要价甚高。俄方向立足于对外军贸的“枭龙”战机出售发动机时,也曾提出不得销往其投标的国家。发动机又是战机磨损最快且经常需要维修更换的部分,如不能解决发动机这一“心脏病”,中国战机就会始终受制于它国。

  “太行”发动机研制成功,工程技术人员们18年努力攻关终于有了圆满成果。对于中国空军来说,新型战机终于有了自己的心脏。据报道,总体比较,“太行”发动机的性能还要稍高于苏一27装配的AL-31F,同装配美国F一15、F一16的F一100、F一110不相上下,这标志着中国航空发动机行业完成了由仿制、测绘仿制向自主研制、自行发展的转变过程,继美、俄之后成为进入大推力发动机研制领域的国家。

  中国新型发动机研制成功带来的直接影响,便是俄罗斯近来大幅度放宽了对华军售的限制,要价也比过去降低。据俄国传媒报道,今年与中国已经签署一项价值 3亿美元的出售100套AL一31发动机的合同,这也是俄罗斯国防产品出口公司(Rosoboronexpon)本年内最大一宗武器交易。此外,国内为 “枭龙”所研制的“天山”发动机质量也将超过俄罗斯售给该机的RD93型,于是俄方向中巴联合推出外销的“枭龙”出口发动机也变得爽快,而且放弃了外销附加条件。

  看到中国已经能自产新型发动机,俄罗斯降价出卖原有产品是很自然的现象。中国目前还要购买较大数量的俄制发动机,除了照顾两国的战略合作伙伴关系,也有国内新产品尚需一个调试和改进过程的原因。在这段不长的过渡阶段中,继续使用国际上有声誉而且很成熟的俄制产品仍不失为一种比较适宜的选择。

  在“太行”发动机研制之初,当时的空军副司令员林虎就提出:“我们买飞机还是为了促进自己发展。”时任国防科工委主任丁衡高更强调: “动力再不抓是不行的;现在这代科技骨干如果不用,以后都老化了,再也接不上茬了。”当时的中央军委副主席杨尚昆确定一条原则:“空军要依靠自己的航空工业;应付急需、少量购买飞机不要影响自己研制。”作出决策的这些高层领导在位时的决策使“太行”发动机研制得以稳步进行,对此航空界知情者还是感念不忘。

  从90年代初至今的十几年里,中国空军在电子设备、发动机技术落后制约着新战机自研的窘境中,花费成百亿美元购买了俄罗斯的数百架苏一27、苏一30 重型战斗机,这在空军发展史上只应视为一个过渡阶段。如今国内电子资讯工业已经有了飞跃发展,某些领域已超过俄罗斯,自研第三代战机发动机的问题又已解决,下一步以较低成本大批量生产新型战斗机便可实现,空军自60年代中后期以来机型严重落后的局面将彻底改变。

Ukraine to assist china in developing gen. 4th fighter engine.

China will not refuse any help it can get, that I get. However, how much help can Ukraine actually provide?
 

Lion

Senior Member
Re: New Generation Fighter

Has the Ukrarine involved in the project start of the 15tons engine or they just going to get involved?

From the news gather, China 15tons engine so far has already gone smoothly. It will be redundant for Ukraine if they only just start providing help from now.
 

challenge

Banned Idiot
Re: New Generation Fighter

the russian accuse the ukrainian of assissting China to clone copy RD-33, for unknown reason the engine never went into production,said to reengine JH-7 or F-8 (latest variant F-8T still powered by WP-14),possible the Chinese engineers may have reallized they have better idea. or better engine in the drawing board (WS-15?)
 

Lion

Senior Member
Re: New Generation Fighter

the russian accuse the ukrainian of assissting China to clone copy RD-33, for unknown reason the engine never went into production,said to reengine JH-7 or F-8 (latest variant F-8T still powered by WP-14),possible the Chinese engineers may have reallized they have better idea. or better engine in the drawing board (WS-15?)

WS-15 is suppose to be in different class of WS-13. WS-15 is suppose to in same class as WS-10 but an updated one with more thrust.

WS-13 is suppose to be the same class as RD-93/GF 404 with also updated thrust.

Both are different greatly in dimension, weight and thrust...

As for F-8T still power by WP-14, turbo jet still retain some advantage over turbofan in high alttitude /high speed performance and F-8T is a old design, why bother to put a new engine in it?

JH-7A is presently using a WS-9II/Sprey which can match M53 P2 performance...
 
Last edited:

challenge

Banned Idiot
Re: New Generation Fighter

WS-15 is suppose to be in different class of WS-13. WS-15 is suppose to in same class as WS-10 but an updated one with more thrust.

WS-13 is suppose to be the same class as RD-93/GF 404 with also updated thrust.

Both are different greatly in dimension, weight and thrust...

As for F-8T still power by WP-14, turbo jet still retain some advantage over turbofan in high alttitude /high speed performance and F-8T is a old design, why bother to put a new engine in it?

JH-7A is presently using a WS-9II/Sprey which can match M53 P2 performance...
according to IDR the russian is currently developing newer vetrsion of RD-93 with 102kn thrust for MIG-35. engine going to much lighter
technical data release by AVIC shown the engine is identical to RD-33, at T:W ratio 7.5:1 ,by contrast T:W ratio for GE-F-404 is impressive 9.2:1
 
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