J-20... The New Generation Fighter

Re: New Generation Fighter

Bltizo said:

The J-XX will be seeking to achieve parity with the F-22 -- late last year on CCTV a PLAAF general said somethign along the lines of "going to match the F-22 as close as possible" (performance wise).
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What will make this even more impressive is if they can achieve it with about half or 2/3 of the F22 costs.

Re: New Generation Fighter

Schumacher said:

What will make this even more impressive is if they can achieve it with about half or 2/3 of the F22 costs.

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I imagine most advantages China will have in cost to performance ratio will be due to its cheap labour, though procuring from state owned corporations could also reduce costs by eliminating the need for high profit margins.

But I caution having too much confidence on the F22. Yes, the J-XX's canards would affect its RCS, but both the Chinese and Russians are taking a different approach to 5th gen fighters than the US is.

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I ask this because several sources suggest that the J-XX will be a canard based platform and my understanding is that canards increase the RCS. Am I misinformed on this point?

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The reason many people insist canards affect RCS is because:
1) The most effective canard designs for lift and maneuvarability usually don't sit on the same plane as the main wing. This creates odd angles that make for more difficult control of return signals.

2) Because of the creeping wave effect, where a portion of radar that hits a conductive surface tends to creep along that surface. With a tailplane design the main wing carries those creeping waves along the entirety of its surface till it hits the far edge, exiting from the back of the plane. In the case of a foreplane design though, the first instance of a creeping wave is the canard, and when it terminates from the back end of the canard it can (if I've done my reading right) interfere with the deflected return signal of the main wing.

Both factors primarily compromise frontal RCS. The latter problem can be resolved by turning the Canard into a movable LERX (like the PAKFA), which makes the control surface part of a continuous surface, or by using more radar transparent materials for the canard and by coating it with RAM that can convert the creeping wave into heat or reflect radar waves more effectively on the leading edge of the Canard (If that's possible? That reflecting bit was a guess on my part). The former problem can use these solution or be resolved if the canard sits on same plane as the main wing with attention to planform alignment at the cost of some of their aerodynamic benefits, so it's largely a matter of aerodynamic design.

With these solutions at hand however, keep in mind that having canards corrected for RCS or not won't make or break the stealthiness any plane. Stealthiness is achieved through a combination of other design factors like the use of corner reflectors (surface angles that reflect radar away from the source), how embedded the engine is (to prevent the radar reflection from the turbofan) and interior factors like re-entrant triangles--internal structures designed to dissipate radar energy that pass through the surface of the plane. It's the sum of parts, and not the individual pieces that determine how stealthy a plane. For example, if the JXX adds to its RCS with canards it might be able to decrease its RCS with smaller tailplanes or use a more flying wing like design. Furthermore, there's always the remote possibility that even with odd shapes and angles on the plane they're designed in a way that guarantees those radar signatures ultimately don't return to their source.

Re: New Generation Fighter

Too lazy to quote the specified points, so I'll just put em out here.

F-22s were designed around Stealth, and for good reasons too. Our Tactic was to supercruise silently and when we say a Sukhoi or a J-10, we'd launch our AIM-120Ds at supercruise for increased kinematics. Sukhoi/J-10 wouldn't see us, and it'll be a kill, and F-22 would go home safe.

The stealth isn't a bad thing too, some say that the F-22's super stealthiness comes at a logistical cost, but of course, their mission readiness has been climbing and climbing and is at 68% mission readiness right now, which is good.

I think that the priority for Russian and Chinese designers of Stealth isn't the same as that of Lockheed Martin's designers. As far as I know, Russian and Chinese fighters are being geared for a Close Quarters knife fight, which is where maneuverability would be needed. But a dogfight would be unneccecary if you can kill your enemy from 50 km out with a R-77M or a PL-12.

So with that, a question, are there early, early, estimates of the J-XX's RCS?

Re: New Generation Fighter

IronsightSniper said:

Too lazy to quote the specified points, so I'll just put em out here.

F-22s were designed around Stealth, and for good reasons too. Our Tactic was to supercruise silently and when we say a Sukhoi or a J-10, we'd launch our AIM-120Ds at supercruise for increased kinematics. Sukhoi/J-10 wouldn't see us, and it'll be a kill, and F-22 would go home safe.

The stealth isn't a bad thing too, some say that the F-22's super stealthiness comes at a logistical cost, but of course, their mission readiness has been climbing and climbing and is at 68% mission readiness right now, which is good.

I think that the priority for Russian and Chinese designers of Stealth isn't the same as that of Lockheed Martin's designers. As far as I know, Russian and Chinese fighters are being geared for a Close Quarters knife fight, which is where maneuverability would be needed. But a dogfight would be unneccecary if you can kill your enemy from 50 km out with a R-77M or a PL-12.

So with that, a question, are there early, early, estimates of the J-XX's RCS?

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^ Any estimates of RCS at this point would be excessive and probably completely off the mark, when we don't even know what J-XX looks like.

And also, the PAK FA's stealth design seems to be keeping it from geting taken when against BVR against other 5th gen fighters, and then using its superior manouverability to out dogfight the other. The F-22 has more all aspect stealth for operating in enemy airspace and for penetrating deep.

Re: New Generation Fighter

Yes, I've read Carlo Kopp's analysis too, PAK-FA has a fair premise, but lets see how the J-XX stacks up.

Re: New Generation Fighter

Bltizo said:

^ Any estimates of RCS at this point would be excessive and probably completely off the mark, when we don't even know what J-XX looks like.
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Here's my RCS estimate anyway, somewhere between T50 and F22.

Re: New Generation Fighter

I think PLAAF Aviation must speed up its development of a new generation fighter planes.

USAF and member nation included in the JSF program will probably start to operate F-35 in 2011, base on my recent info's I was able to gather.

That will really pose another challenge.

Anybody here has any updates on the New Generation the PLAAF was developing? How far was it going?

Hi mandarin..Your first post was deleted because we do not allow that sort of nonsense in this forum. You've been warned..read the forum rules before you proceed!

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Following further mod discussion, the warning has been elevated to permanent ban - more of a lemon than mandarin and blatant trolling and disrespect of the forum and its members.

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Re: New Generation Fighter

Schumacher said:

Here's my RCS estimate anyway, somewhere between T50 and F22.

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I've no way of estimating RCS, but I imaging that the design of an aircraft for stealth depends to a large extent on the simulation of interaction of the aircraft's shape and materials with radar radiation using supercomputers. The Chines aircraft is coming ten years after F-22 and ten years is an extremely long time in the developement of these machines, so the new aircraft has a major advantage.

Re: New Generation Fighter

delft said:

I've no way of estimating RCS, but I imaging that the design of an aircraft for stealth depends to a large extent on the simulation of interaction of the aircraft's shape and materials with radar radiation using supercomputers. The Chines aircraft is coming ten years after F-22 and ten years is an extremely long time in the developement of these machines, so the new aircraft has a major advantage.

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Delft, are you located in Holland?

Re: New Generation Fighter

mandarin said:

I think PLAAF Aviation must speed up its development of a new generation fighter planes.

USAF and member nation included in the JSF program will probably start to operate F-35 in 2011, base on my recent info's I was able to gather.

That will really pose another challenge.

Anybody here has any updates on the New Generation the PLAAF was developing? How far was it going?

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Funny, that doesn't seem to jibe well with the US DoD getting angry at Lockheed moving the end of testing timetable back to 2015.