J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

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zoom

Junior Member
oh that's how they did it.I thought i was going crazy.Just as well i am not a pilot. There are several pics of the 2 at the nose and the first frames of this video also show that so it can't be that the others were ps.Thanks for clearing that up kyanges. >
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
From sina...

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BEIJING – China confirmed it held its first test-flight of a stealth fighter jet on Tuesday, a show of muscle during a visit by U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates aimed at defusing military tensions between the two big powers.

Gates said Chinese President Hu Jintao told him the maiden test-flight of the J-20 fighter jet prototype, which could eventually help narrow the military gap with the United States, was not timed to coincide with his visit.

"I asked President Hu about it directly, and he said that the test had absolutely nothing to do with my visit and had been a pre-planned test," Gates told reporters.

Asked whether he believed that, Gates said: "I take President Hu at his word that the test had nothing to do with my visit."

A Pentagon official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Hu and other civilian leaders at the meeting with Gates did not appear aware the J-20 test-flight had happened before the U.S. side pressed them about it.

"When Secretary Gates raised the question of the J-20 test in the meeting with President Hu, it was clear that none of the civilians in the room had been informed," the official told reporters.

The flight of the J-20 may have been timed to coincide with Gates's visit to signal to Chinese people, including military officers, that Beijing was not bowing in the face of U.S. pressure, said Jin Canrong, a professor at Renmin University in Beijing who specialises in China-U.S. relations.

Ardently patriotic Chinese, including some outspoken military officers, have urged the government to press Washington harder over Chinese complaints about U.S. arms sales to Taiwan and U.S. military activities in seas and skies near China.

"This is a kind of military transparency and it's also possibly an internal signal," Jin told Reuters.

"Some people may feel that China is looking too weak and this is to show some muscle," he said. "This says, 'We're not weak. We're also developing our own technology."

Beforehand, reports about the test flight of the jet, which could potentially evade detection by foes, in the southwest Chinese city of Chengdu had been widely circulated on Chinese Internet blogs and online news sites.

They showed pictures of a fighter plane in flight and some offered what were cast as running accounts of the J-20 stealth jet fighter taking off after midday for a short flight from an airport in Chengdu.

The website of the Global Times, a popular newspaper owned by the People's Daily, the ruling Communist Party's main paper, featured a brief report headlined: "J-20 first flight successful".

It published a link to what it said were pictures of the flight.

In recent days, Chinese Web sites and some popular newspapers, which can come under a heavy grip of censorship, have carried many reports and pictures claiming to show the stealth fighter being tested on the ground.

But apart from Hu's remarks to Gates, the government had been silent about the fighter.

The latest pictures may heighten concern about China's military build-up, including possible deployment in 2011 of its first aircraft carrier and a new anti-ship ballistic missile seen as a threat to U.S. aircraft carriers.

Some analysts have said that the J-20 photos suggest that China may be making faster-than-expected progress in developing a rival to Lockheed Martin's F-22 Raptor, the world's only operational stealth fighter designed to evade detection by radar.

But U.S. Vice Admiral David Dorsett, director of naval intelligence, has said deployment of the J-20 is years away.

Xu Guangyu, a retired Chinese major general who works for the China Arms Control and Disarmament Association, agreed.

"There would have to be at least a thousand flights between the plane's maiden flight and its military deployment," Xu told Reuters. "There's no reason for a hue and cry."

(Agencies)
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Thanks Kickars! Nice succinct answers. Being a former USN aviation ordananceman I'm really interested in the weapons load.... And I want to see the bomb bay!!..if she indeed has one.

I also wonder how many China shall produce.

I think that is one assumption we can probably take to the bank. I think it would be a farce if J-20 has no internal weapons bay and has to carry everything on external pylons.
Like you and probably everyone else here I too would like to see these bay and it's ordnance load. Will it carry new yet to be seen misslies or carry existing weapons of the PLAAF?
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
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BEIJING—China's first test flight of its stealth fighter Tuesday overshadowed a mission to China by U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates to repair frayed military relations, and prompted concern about whether President Hu Jintao and the civilian leadership are fully in control of the increasingly powerful armed forces.

U.S. officials said that President Hu appeared to be taken by surprise when Mr. Gates asked him about the test flight during a meeting, hours after pictures and accounts of it began appearing online.

Analysts said that would be an embarrassment for China's top leader—who in theory controls the military as chairman of the Central Military Commission—just as Chinese officials anxiously try to make sure Mr. Hu's planned trip to the U.S. next week goes smoothly.

If the military deliberately kept Mr. Hu in the dark, that would reinforce concerns that hawkish elements in the military are increasingly driving China's foreign policy—including ties with the U.S.—and that they are trying to enhance their power in China's domestic politics ahead of a leadership transition next year.

"It was clear the civilian leadership was uninformed" of the J-20 test, said a senior U.S. defense official after the meeting between Mr. Gates and Mr. Hu.

Mr. Hu, who is due to step down as party chief in 2012, eventually confirmed to Mr. Gates that the test had taken place and assured him that it was pre-planned and not directed at the U.S., according to the American officials.

Mr. Gates said he accepted Mr. Hu's explanation about the J-20 test flight, but added that he had long-running concerns about civilian control over the Chinese military.

"I have had concerns about this over time," he said. "And frankly, that is one of the reasons I attach importance to a dialogue between the two sides that includes both civilian and military."

Citing diplomatic protocol, the U.S. officials declined to make public further details about how exactly Mr. Hu was informed about the test during the meeting. But television footage showed several uniformed Chinese generals and other senior officers in the room.

China's Foreign Ministry declined to comment on the U.S. account of the meeting. But analysts said that if accurate, it suggested that Mr. Hu had to seek clarification from his own military officials in the middle of the meeting.

China's stealth fighter prototype made its first test flight as Robert Gates, the U.S. Defense Secretary was meeting Chinese civilian leaders in Beijing. Plus, the iPhone comes to Verizon. How will AT&T respond?

The J-20, which has been conducting runway tests for the past several weeks, took off from an airstrip at the Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute just before 1 p.m. local time and flew for about 15 minutes, according to Chinese bloggers.
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Bloggers also posted video and still images of the sleek, dark-gray, twin-engine plane—which looks similar to the U.S. F-22, the world's only fully operational stealth fighter—taking off and in flight in slightly hazy skies over a built-up area surrounding the airfield.

Military aviation experts say the images suggest that China is making faster-than-expected progress in developing a potential rival to the F-22 and the Russian T-50 which made its first test flight last year.

They also say that the People's Liberation Army, or PLA, appears to have wanted the images made public as Internet censors, who routinely delete politically sensitive material, have allowed them to be circulated.

The episode undercut a core message that Mr. Gates brought to Beijing about the need for transparency and predictability to build trust between the militaries of the world's lone superpower and its rising Asian rival.

Analysts said it also appeared to be a sharp personal message to Mr. Gates, who took a controversial decision to scrap production of the F-22 stealth fighter in 2009, justifying the move partly by saying that China would not be able to produce a similar aircraft by 2020.

WSJ's Rebecca Blumenstein explains to Simon Constable new photos indicate the possibility that the Chinese military has developed a new stealth fighter jet, confirming fears of a military buildup.


Mr. Hu's apparent lack of information is likely to fuel international concern that he and the other eight civilians who make up the Party's Politburo Standing Committee—China's top decision-making body—are losing some of their control over the PLA.

"It suggests worrying levels of assertiveness and defiance of civilian leadership within the PLA," said Rory Medcalf, director of the International Security Program at the Lowy Institute for International Policy in Sydney.

"This revelation confirms that the PLA is willing to take provocative, assertive steps regardless of diplomatic priorities—perhaps even in deliberate opposition to them."

Civilian control of the military has been a central tenet of the Chinese Communist Party since even before it took control of China. "Our principle is that the party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the party," Mao Zedong wrote in a 1938 essay.

That principle has held for most of time since the Communists won power in 1949—though in practice there was often little distinction between the party and military, since most of China's leaders had military experience from the civil war.

In recent years, the party has been run by civilians without military backgrounds who have maintained their authority over the military in part through generous annual increases to the defense budget.


But after two decades of rapid military modernization, many Western and Chinese analysts say some factions within the PLA are pushing a hard-line agenda, which is having increasing impact on decision making in Beijing, especially in the run-up to the party leadership change in 2012.

While opinions aren't uniform within the military, some analysts speculate that nationalist generals are now feeling their power, as they're courted by prospective members of the incoming ruling elite, and are using that as leverage to influence foreign policy.

That agenda was apparent in China's more forceful stance last year on territorial disputes in the East and South China seas, and in hawkish public statements from serving generals and other senior officers, which often pre-empted comments from the civilian leadership.

It is not the first time that gaps have appeared between the military and political hierarchies. A lack of communication was also highlighted on Jan. 11, 2007, when China shocked the world by shooting down a disused satellite with a missile—and the Foreign Ministry appeared not to have been informed.

Later that year, the U.S. aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk was temporarily denied permission for a long-planned port call in Hong Kong—apparently again without the Foreign Ministry's awareness—an incident that Mr. Gates said afterward also suggested a "disconnect" between the military and civilian sides of the Chinese government.

Over the past week, the Foreign Ministry has appeared out of the loop again, repeatedly sidestepping questions about the J-20 images. It did so again Tuesday in a regular briefing from spokesman Hong Lei.

"As technology develops, and in accordance with the needs of national defense, it is natural for countries to upgrade their weapons equipment," he said.

"The development of China's weapons equipment is completely based on the needs of its own security, and it is meant to protect China's sovereignty, security and territorial integrity. It is not aimed at any country or specific target."

Mr. Gates arrived in Beijing Sunday on a three-day mission to deepen and stabilize military exchanges that China has repeatedly suspended for political reasons, most recently in January 2010 over U.S. arms sales to Taiwan.

However, China's military appears to be doing the bare minimum to revive military ties and ensure Mr. Hu's visit goes smoothly, while at the same time showcasing its growing firepower before a domestic and international audience, analysts say.

On Monday, Mr. Gates's Chinese counterpart, Gen. Liang Guanglie, rebuffed a U.S. proposal for a clear timetable of deeper strategic defense talks, and made clear that China would suspend military ties again if the U.S. sold more arms to Taiwan.

Mr. Gates said Tuesday that Chinese officials asked for more details on the agenda of the talks and that U.S. officials were drafting more concrete plans on the dialogue. "They are taking the proposal seriously," he said.

Pentagon officials said Mr. Gates was greeted enthusiastically by Mr. Hu and Yang Jiechi, the foreign minister, Tuesday and that the civilian leadership seems warmer to U.S. calls for an in-depth strategic dialogue.

But the more positive tone of Tuesday's meetings was soon eclipsed by the test flight, which aviation experts say showed that China had now moved on to testing the J-20's flight control software, its engines, and its aerodynamics.

But The Wall Street Journal did reach a waitress in the 365 Recreation Tea Shop, next to the airfield, who said several workers from the Institute were playing cards there.

"Did you guys see the test fight today, did it actually take off?" she was heard asking the customers, who were heard replying: "Yes, it took off and flew!" They declined to speak directly on the telephone with a reporter.

YIKES!!! I too find it disturbing if Mr. Hu is unaware of the first test flight on what is arguably one of the most significant advancement in PLAAF history!!!!! and to get call on it by the US SECDEF is even worst!!
How can the PLAAF general not tell the freaking President? Is communication between military and civilian leadership that broken? That is scary!!!
Can you imagine if say the USAF is publicly testing some new super duper laser weapon system and the whole world knows about it except President Obama??? WTH?
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
YIKES!!! I too find it disturbing if Mr. Hu is unaware of the first test flight on what is arguably one of the most significant advancement in PLAAF history!!!!! and to get call on it by the US SECDEF is even worst!!
How can the PLAAF general not tell the freaking President? Is communication between military and civilian leadership that broken? That is scary!!!
Can you imagine if say the USAF is publicly testing some new super duper laser weapon system and the whole world knows about it except President Obama??? WTH?

I think Hu is just pretending...
 

Cpt_Underpants

Banned Idiot
I think that is one assumption we can probably take to the bank. I think it would be a farce if J-20 has no internal weapons bay and has to carry everything on external pylons.
Like you and probably everyone else here I too would like to see these bay and it's ordnance load. Will it carry new yet to be seen misslies or carry existing weapons of the PLAAF?

I am pretty sure that the PLAAF will equip it with it's current as well as new 'so far' unseen missles when it becomes ready. I think weapons system and weapon load are probably one of the easier things for them to sort out right now.
 

tanlixiang28776

Junior Member
I'm pretty sure that Hu Jintao would notice the the billions of dollars that go into this project go missing. I'm almost positive this plane has flown extensively before being shown to the public.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
I think Hu is just pretending...

I dunno siege. I mean it's not secret or anything. Why would he pretend not to know on something like that? At best he would look ignorant and uninformed. At worst people are going to assume the military is doing things behind his back which is a very very bad thing.
 

carandol

New Member
From educated men on Stealth issues (I really mean just Carlo Kopp), the T-50 should have about -20 dbsm all aspect RCS, which equates to about .001 m2

The F-22 is known to have about a -40 dbsm all aspect RCS, which equates to about .00001 m2

I think we can all agree that the J-20 looks more like a F-22 than a T-50 and we can all agree that the J-20 is also relatively bigger than the F-22?

Before I say my estimate, I'll state where I am on the credential bar.

1-100, where 1 is someone who know this from playing Call of Duty and 100 is someone who designed the stuff, I'd be about a 20, I've talked to some people who are in the 70s (Engineers and learned men), so I'm not that far away from idiot.

Anyways, I'd guess that the J-20 would have a RCS similar to the of the F-35, about .001 m2 Frontal and .001 everywhere else.

Don't shoot me.

Your dBsm to square meter conversion is off. -20 dBsm is 0.01 m2.
 

Cpt_Underpants

Banned Idiot
YIKES!!! I too find it disturbing if Mr. Hu is unaware of the first test flight on what is arguably one of the most significant advancement in PLAAF history!!!!! and to get call on it by the US SECDEF is even worst!!
How can the PLAAF general not tell the freaking President? Is communication between military and civilian leadership that broken? That is scary!!!
Can you imagine if say the USAF is publicly testing some new super duper laser weapon system and the whole world knows about it except President Obama??? WTH?

I am sure that was just President Hu's "Humour". I am sure he surfs the internet at home too and his young son Hu Haifeng and daughter Hu Haiqing also keeps him up to date with what is going on in the world outside the military or with rumours on the public domain =)
 
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