J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

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siegecrossbow

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Back to topic guys!
I know this has been asked before but what is the true length of the J-20? I think some one used a truck and then the J-10 for comparison.

Also the video shows that the J-20 had a shorter takeoff than the J-10s despite the fact that it didn't employ the afterburners. Does this imply that the engines are powerful enough for supercruise?
 
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Cpt_Underpants

Banned Idiot
siegecrossbow said:
Back to topic guys!
I know this has been asked before but what is the true length of the J-20? I think some one used a truck and then the J-10 for comparison.

Also the video shows that the J-20 had a shorter takeoff than the J-10s despite the fact that it didn't employ the afterburners. Does this imply that the engines are powerful enough for supercruise?
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There are little to no details regarding its real size or the full capabilities of its new engines. Regardless if it is supercruiseable or not, being able to perform a short take off with no use of its afterburner is a great feat for CAC. Hopefully more in depth analysis and official figures will be published in due course.
 
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AssassinsMace

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I've been checking on my library if engine pics. The only pic I can find that looks somewhat similar is the pic of Jiang Zemin playing with the throttle which is suppose to be TVC. Unfortuantely it's only a partial pic of the engine's petals. Anyone have a wider shot of it?
 

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latenlazy

Brigadier
pla101prc said:
if that is indeed the case its a fairly undiplomatic reacton by the Chinese. they are obviously mocking gates. there is no way that they didnt know about the fighter. it costs billions to develop and guess where the funds came from? yup the state department...so at least Hu Jintao, Wen Jiabao, Xi Jinping and Zhang Dejiang(vice premier in charge of industry) should know about it...
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I think the article is faulty. First it says that Hu and Gates talked about it, and then it says Hu and several leaders were surprised when he brought it up. There's no way they didn't know that the US knew about the J-20, and it's unlikely that Gates would have gotten confirmation about China's intentions regarding the flight test at the meeting. These things are usually handled before any major discussions.
 
kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
vesicles said:
I don't doubt for a millisecond that Hu knew all about it. Why? Let's assume the worst case scenario when Hu was totally not informed of the project. The internet pictures of this plane have been around for weeks on end. It would be impossible for Hu's own people not to notice. Let's face it, every boss has his own cronies, let alone a boss with Hu stature. His agents would definitely notice these photos, especially because of the importance of the project. Hu would be informed immediately IF he had no knowledge of it beforehand.

It would be impossible to keep Hu in the dark especially when he is the Chair of the CMC. Because of the rigid political structure of the Chinese govn't, no project at this magnitude can begin without the blessings of Hu. Additionally, General He last year publically annouced the existence of the stealth fighter program. It made a huge noise everywhere. Even assuming IF Hu had no knowledge of it before that, he would surely want to get to the bottom of this when General He publically talked about it.

Also, people saw all these head honchoes at the test flight since last week. No Chinese official would dare to publically embrace something like this without the knoweldge of the big boss. And all these high level military officials leaving their posts and go to Chengdu? Historically, Chinese govn'ts have been suspicious of their military commanders' movements. Even in ancient times, Chinese emperors had all these rules about when, where and how military official leave their posts. And Now, all these generals as well as civilian leaders gather in one place without the blessings of the big boss? What are you guys trying to do? PLanning a political/military coupe? Such thing would be IMPOSSIBLE. Not even 0.0001% of probability. absolutely ZERO!

Hu must have known about it. I think there have been conflicting news about this. As I posted earlier about a USA Today piece, it clearly says Hu confirmed the test flight with Gates. And when Gates asked if the test flight was planned around his visit, Hu told him the test flight had been planned for a long time and just happened to be at the same time of Gates' visit. Although I don't believe that the test flight had nothing to do with Gates' visit, what this piece clearly shows is that Hu knew about it and actually had explained to Gates about the planned test flight.

And now people are saying Chinese officials acted shocked. This is in direct contrast of what the USA Today claimed.

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I don't think the article was refering to the project whole but specifically to this "first" flight that Hu was unaware when Gates brought it up to him.

A possible explanation is Hu has already seen the "real" first flight and is honestly unaware, forgot or doesn't care of this particular one but I'm just pulling that theory out my rear end.
 
Geographer

Geographer

Junior Member
If the military deliberately kept Mr. Hu in the dark, that would reinforce concerns that hawkish elements in the military are increasingly driving China's foreign policy—including ties with the U.S.—and that they are trying to enhance their power in China's domestic politics ahead of a leadership transition next year.

"It was clear the civilian leadership was uninformed" of the J-20 test, said a senior U.S. defense official after the meeting between Mr. Gates and Mr. Hu.
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That senior defense official must not have an ounce of common sense. Does he really believe the President and head of the Central Military Commission would not be aware of a test of his country's new stealth fighter plane? It is really shocking to see someone parrot that view seriously. I think the WSJ is trying to play up an angle that the military and Party are split when there is no evidence of that. Civil military relations in the PRC are very good and the Party maintains a high grip on operations. As other posters have stated, a project of that magnitude would have to be cleared by the highest levels of government. People's careers would be ruined if they went behind Hu's back and tested a plane.

Far more likely is Hu and company did not want to talk about the plane, and the best way to avoid the topic was to play dumb. The only pictures out so far have been unofficial so there is some plausible deniability. That a senior defense official really believes something so foolish (albeit unnamed) shows more about American thinking than Chinese. What kind of person is advising Secretary Gates? Sounds like an American diplomat needs to that defense official aside and teach them some common sense about diplomacy and politics.
 
Martian

Martian

Senior Member
Jane's Defence believes the picture is legitimate

Martian said:
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Note: Thank you to "maozedong" and "dingyibvs" for the pictures.
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KYli said:
Martian

The second picture is altered.
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I believe that you have erred. CNN has published an article using a truncated version of the same picture. You will notice that the photo credit is courtesy of Jane's. Unless, of course, you want to make the claim that Jane's Defence can't tell the difference between a real photograph and one that has been altered.

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"With Gates in the country, China stealth fighter takes first flight
By Jennifer Rizzo, CNN National Security Producer
January 12, 2011 -- Updated 0022 GMT (0822 HKT)

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Analysts think the J-20 fighter will have the radar-evading capability of fifth-generation fighters made by the U.S.

(CNN) -- China took its latest powerful toy, a new stealth fighter jet, out for its first test spin Tuesday, leading U.S. Defense Secretary Gates to wonder whether the flight was scheduled to coincide with his visit.

"I asked President Hu (Jintao) about it directly," Gates said at a briefing with reporters in Beijing. "And he said that the test had absolutely nothing to do with my visit and had been a pre-planned test. And that's where we left it."

Images and videos of China's latest generation fighter, being called the J-20, hit the web in a frenzy of excitement in late December. Onlookers outside the airfield base have been allowed to use cell phones to snap shots and record low resolution video, a decision that many experts point to as a move by China to pump its chest in advance of Gates' trip to China and Hu's visit to the United States next week.

Tuesday's test flight appeared to be no different in regard to the viral marketing. Videos and pictures have hit the web, some showing crowds of people lined up alongside the airfield gate in southern China, cheering and jumping up and down as the fighter lands.

Gates however, who made the trip to discuss military relations between the United States and China, said he believes the Chinese president's assurance that the test flight had been previously planned.

"I take President Hu at his word that ... the test had nothing to do with my visit," Gates said. (story continues)"
 
vesicles

vesicles

Colonel
kwaigonegin said:
I don't think the article was refering to the project whole but specifically to this "first" flight that Hu was unaware when Gates brought it up to him.

A possible explanation is Hu has already seen the "real" first flight and is honestly unaware, forgot or doesn't care of this particular one but I'm just pulling that theory out my rear end.
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Absolutely impossible! No one in their right mind would keep Hu in the dark for this important moment. Everyone knows that the test flight was more of a political move than technical. As the political leader of the nation, Hu would be the one who had to decide when, where and how the public test flight would take place. I wouldn't be surprised if they had multiple meetings on this. So to say Hu had no idea of the public test flight is like saying Hu had no idea of a national parade in Beijing on October 1, 2009. Politically two event have the same goal although the magnitude might be a little different. both would need the approval of Hu.

the timing the event suggests its tie to Hu's visit to the US. This means the public showing is an important strategic move. I don't think Hu forget about something this important.

Plus, a sudden change of the level of security around the airfield suggest a major change in the policies, which definitely needs approval from the top. No one would risk treason by leaking national secret (the J-20 tes flight, which proves the existence of the stealth fighter project) to the world.
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
After catching up with this thread, one of the articles clarified the matter as "civilians inside the room" didn't know about it, which is perfectly fine. Not everyone in China keeps up with military news, or news at all.
 
SampanViking

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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Cpt_Underpants said:
Thank you for your response. Yes I know very well the rules as I have read it before I even started posting on this particular forum.
As for you referring to me as "young man", I am not sure if I should take that as an offense or a compliment as I am probably older than you are. This I think has also broken the rules of provocation and directing a personal attack on others. If you prefer to be abusive then have it your way. I am a civilized person and I don't make personal atttacks on others because they have upsetted my feelings or what not.
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As you have read the rules and my previous moderation to you, your now commenced 2 week holiday for failure to observe either of them will come as no surprise.
 
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