J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

[manqiangrexue]

Inow??, where in tarnation did you come up with "a single low-powered engine"?? to describe the Pratt and Whitney F-135 engine???? the F-135 is the single most powerful fighter aircraft engine ever produced, and none of our "near peers" or even our ally's are anywhere near the thrust rating of the F-135???

To be clear, in the context of that discussion, I do not agree with Inst's claim that the F-135's "low power" reduces IR signature as this single engine is indeed more powerful than any other single engine. So all else equal, this monster engine would be more detectable on IR but since it is alone, it still causes the F-35 to fly with most likely significantly lower TWR than any of its stealthy peers.

 

[Pika]

I wonder if down the line into the future they'll include WS-10 TVC engine or just shoot straight for the WS-15 instead.

 

[stannislas]

I wonder if down the line into the future they'll include WS-10 TVC engine or just shoot straight for the WS-15 instead.

That depends, if WS-15 could be fit into J-20 for testing, let’s say in 2-3 years, so 2022-2023, there might not be a WS-10 TVC J-20, otherwise base on how Chinese usually have done, it’s highly likely they will put the TVC on J-20

 

[stannislas]

I wonder if down the line into the future they'll include WS-10 TVC engine or just shoot straight for the WS-15 instead.

But TBH, I suspect that even WS-15 could be put on J-20 in 3 years for testing, WS-10TVC would still highly likely to be put on J-20 for testing too.

A, additional TVC could be a complete renovation for the entire J-20 control system, even its airframes (like how people suspect if the ventral fin could be cancelled if TVC is added), for this they need time to test. Since WS-10 reliability is no longer an issue this days, comparing with WS-15 , that’s just one less thing to worry about.

B, like what they did on J-10, C version came out in just a years after B version, which indicate that those two variants could be developed in parallel, J-10B is a safer, less channeling back up version in case J-10C got delayed. J-20B (with WS-10TVC) in this case could be that safe backup if the J-20C (with WS-15) got any delay.

 

[Xizor]

WS-15 likely won't have 3D OVTs. They would have serrated nozzles though. Designing a 3D OVT that includes IR suppressing panels( ceramic panels) would be impractical considering the costs, weight and complexity involved.
Chances are, the feature packed WS-15 would push the J-20 into a hangar queen. It's a gamble that China can't afford to / should not take.

I must say that initially,I thought J-20 would be having WS-15 with 3D thrust vectoring. That was my position merely months ago...but the existence of Canards and all moving V tail indicate that supermaneuverability would be/could be extracted by Aero Control surfaces alone. The absence of a Gun tells me that TVC equipped Super-maneuverability might not be a priority so far.

These are merely my thoughts/apprehensions.

 

[Xizor]

Since LO technologies applied on air-crafts like F22,F35 and J20 are different and are products of different technologies/ decade/ doctrines - One must be cautious in assigning them Tiers. There is no "educated guesses" here. We have no supercomputers or leaked internal documents that reveal the exact LO qualities of any of these fighter jets. For all we know, it might be that J-20 could be as competent/ even stealtier than F22. Maybe the F35 excels the F22. Maybe the F22 still maintains the edge. Everybody agrees that advanced materials are being employed to cover the skins of the three jets. Do we know the exact properties of these materials (meta materials)? How do we know if/how the geometric stealth gets influenced by meta-materials and vice versa. What kind of relationship can we expect?
Fighter jets are a package of various technologies. What do we know about the capabilities of the Radars and Fire Control systems of these jets ? Any secret technologies employed? Any extra tricks up their sleevs? How good are the Air to Air missiles of these jets. Can these Air to Air missiles get a final approach lock effectively on a stealth aircraft?

Too many questions that will never be answered satisfactorily. Some people still hold on to the "If it looks good, it would perform good" train of thoughts even. I mean...what if it is the SU-57 that is generally discounted as being "not LO enough" that turns out to be a better combat effective machine?

 

[stannislas]

WS-15 likely won't have 3D OVTs. They would have serrated nozzles though. Designing a 3D OVT that includes IR suppressing panels( ceramic panels) would be impractical considering the costs, weight and complexity involved.
Chances are, the feature packed WS-15 would push the J-20 into a hangar queen. It's a gamble that China can't afford to / should not take.

I must say that initially,I thought J-20 would be having WS-15 with 3D thrust vectoring. That was my position merely months ago...but the existence of Canards and all moving V tail indicate that supermaneuverability would be/could be extracted by Aero Control surfaces alone. The absence of a Gun tells me that TVC equipped Super-maneuverability might not be a priority so far.

These are merely my thoughts/apprehensions.

I think there were pictures before about some sort poster of achievements or awards about AECC engine development in 2017? In which it revealed multiple WS-15 parts, serval of them are TVC, so I think that’s a pretty strong indicator for WS-15 with a TVC.

Plus, just a couple days ago, in the CAS paper about canards stealth performance (paper links in this thread), in there it said with TVC, the canards don’t need to move at all in the cruising stage so RCS could be lower. This could be another motivation for them to add TVC beside of super maneuverability.

 

[stannislas]

WS-15 likely won't have 3D OVTs. They would have serrated nozzles though. Designing a 3D OVT that includes IR suppressing panels( ceramic panels) would be impractical considering the costs, weight and complexity involved.
Chances are, the feature packed WS-15 would push the J-20 into a hangar queen. It's a gamble that China can't afford to / should not take.

I must say that initially,I thought J-20 would be having WS-15 with 3D thrust vectoring. That was my position merely months ago...but the existence of Canards and all moving V tail indicate that supermaneuverability would be/could be extracted by Aero Control surfaces alone. The absence of a Gun tells me that TVC equipped Super-maneuverability might not be a priority so far.

These are merely my thoughts/apprehensions.

I agree, J-20 may not emphasize as much as F-22 on super maneuverable, let’s say, even the designer said it’s foolish to dog-fight these days. Still, it has two dog-fight missile, so TVC could be a big plus in close range.

Also since the SRAAMs are much much powerful than any guns in the dog-fight now days, so with its aggressive aerodynamics design and TVC, it will be very big mistake for its enemy to underestimate its maneuverability when facing J-20 in close range.

 

[Xizor]

I think there were pictures before about some sort poster of achievements or awards about AECC engine development in 2017? In which it revealed multiple WS-15 parts, serval of them are TVC, so I think that’s a pretty strong indicator for WS-15 with a TVC.

Plus, just a couple days ago, in the CAS paper about canards stealth performance (paper links in this thread), in there it said with TVC, the canards don’t need to move at all in the cruising stage so RCS could be lower. This could be another motivation for them to add TVC beside of super maneuverability.

The Video showing Ws-15. Yeah, I know. That's why I initially maintained that WS-15 will have TVC. But WS-15 might do away with it considering the cost, difficulties, complexities etc. I think China should consider WS-15 without the TVC too.

 

[Deino]

The Video showing Ws-15. ...

Where do we have a confirmed video of the WS-15? All I know were either faked ones or even US engines.