There's some evidence that the silver nozzles are actually coatings/platings meant for IR suppression. My guess is that if the J-20 goes into production with the Al-31 those would be the petals it uses.
J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V
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It is worth recalling that IR suppression (or RF stealth, or speed or payload or whatever) is not measured on a dichotomous basis. The F-22 with its nozzles have greater IR suppression (though the geometry of the nozzles are more related to preserving aft radar stealth) than the engines J-20 are currently using, but how much more stealthy it is, is another matter, as well as how much of a difference it will have in actual combat.
So my answer is: yes, J-20s nozzles would have a larger radar and likely IR signature than that of F-22, but whether it is a "problem" or not depends on how much of a difference in stealth it provides, and how both jets are used to see if they can take advantage of or to mitigate the difference, operationally.
I heard they were going to eliminate IR concerns permanently on the J-20 by powering it with two very large RED RUBBER BANDs, driving a 38 blade internally ducted fan, with carbon fibre nozzles, zero smoke, zero heat, Bingo! no return, no lock on!
plawolf
Lieutenant General
People keep saying the J20's lack of IR suppression is a problem, which it is in absolute terms, but how much of a problem is it in actual terms considering few western fighters comes with IRST as standard, and none with IRST (Typhoon and Rafale and F35) are currently fielded against China, nor are they likely to be in the near future.
The F35 does have IRST, but also lacks IR suppression (which in itself may be an indication that F22 style IT suppressors are not as important or useful as advocates thing/claim), the F22 has IR suppressors, but lack IRST. At worst that puts the J20 on even footing against both.
Personally, I am of the view that the F22's IR suppressor is blown way out of proportion. Just how much of a practical difference does the suppressor make to 900C engine exhaust against a -50C ambient temperature backdrop? Especially when modern IR imagining technology has advanced to the stage where it could distinguish and specifically target non-heat emitting parts of an airplane, like the cockpit?
I think rather than IR suppression, the primary reason for F22 style flat nozzles would be RCS suppression, which the J20 already somewhat deals with via the positioning of the engines, vertical tails and ventral streaks.
It is by no means perfect, but it is more than good enough to field provisionally.
Once the WS15 is ready, the priority would probably be to get it on the J20 so the plane can function at the thrust level it was designed for, then they will probably start looking at shaped nozzles to reduce further RCS and make the J20 truly all aspect stealth, while at the same working on uprated versions of the WS15 so the extra RCS benefits does not come at the cost of performance.
I am pretty sure that what we are seeing in 2016 is the initial production standard, and the first regiments of J20s will probably look exactly like it bar some small adjustments.
The F35 does have IRST, but also lacks IR suppression (which in itself may be an indication that F22 style IT suppressors are not as important or useful as advocates thing/claim), the F22 has IR suppressors, but lack IRST. At worst that puts the J20 on even footing against both.
Personally, I am of the view that the F22's IR suppressor is blown way out of proportion. Just how much of a practical difference does the suppressor make to 900C engine exhaust against a -50C ambient temperature backdrop? Especially when modern IR imagining technology has advanced to the stage where it could distinguish and specifically target non-heat emitting parts of an airplane, like the cockpit?
I think rather than IR suppression, the primary reason for F22 style flat nozzles would be RCS suppression, which the J20 already somewhat deals with via the positioning of the engines, vertical tails and ventral streaks.
It is by no means perfect, but it is more than good enough to field provisionally.
Once the WS15 is ready, the priority would probably be to get it on the J20 so the plane can function at the thrust level it was designed for, then they will probably start looking at shaped nozzles to reduce further RCS and make the J20 truly all aspect stealth, while at the same working on uprated versions of the WS15 so the extra RCS benefits does not come at the cost of performance.
I am pretty sure that what we are seeing in 2016 is the initial production standard, and the first regiments of J20s will probably look exactly like it bar some small adjustments.
Might be useful to keep in mind the state of IR sensors when the ATF was first conceived and when the F-22 was first developed. IR suppression for the exhaust was probably more than adequate for the potential threats at the time, and thus a realistic goal. Modern IR imaging capabilities probably make pursuit of that goal less feasible, which can change decision making about features and requirements.
If they really want to troll people, they might just take the petals from old AL-31s and slap them on
.
That is a very fair assessment of F-22 and later fighters.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
China Reveals Air-to-Air Missile for Its Fifth-Generation Fighter Jet
By -
September 21, 2015
J-20 Fighter jet
Rumors about China’s latest PL-10 short-range air-to-air missile have been circling for the last two years. Speaking during a Chinese television interview, the missile’s chief designer revealed that the missile is nearly complete, and offered new key details.
Designed by the Luoyang Electro-Optical Research Institute (LEOC), images of the fifth-generation PL-10 first surfaced in 2013. Carried onboard the J-20 fighter, the missiles have also been seen on the J-11, a copy of the Russian Su-27.
Based purely on those photos, experts were able to confirm that the PL-10 utilizes thrust vectoring. Its large fins also likely give the missile high rates of maneuverability, and it may feature a helmet-mounted display sighting system.
Speaking on a Chinese television broadcast last month, Liang Xiaogeng was able to provide more concrete details.
Weighing in at nearly 200 pounds, the 10-foot PL-10 features “world-class” capabilities. After being in development for the past seven years, the missile has a range of 12 miles.
According to Liang, the missile also includes “multi-element imaging infrared seeker with anti-jamming capabilities” and off-boresight attacks.
So far, the PL-10 has already been successfully test-fired 30 times.
This isn’t Liang’s first rodeo. He’s also worked on LEOC’s PL-9C, an infrared/helmet-sighted air-to-air missile, and served as chief designer for the medium-range PL-12.
Liang’s interview came only days before the September 3 military parade in Beijing highlighted the Chinese military’s latest developments. With over 500 units of military hardware and 200 aircraft, the event showed off a number of previously classified ballistic and cruise missiles.
“Much of the weaponry on display – all of it said to be in service in the People’s Liberation Army – will be new, the product of a military modernization drive aimed at ensuring that China can never again be attacked with impunity or overrun by foreign invaders,” retired US Ambassador Chas W. Freeman told Sputnik.
The advanced PL-10s, equipped onboard the maneuverable J-11s, could be a highly effective combination.
By -
September 21, 2015
J-20 Fighter jet
Rumors about China’s latest PL-10 short-range air-to-air missile have been circling for the last two years. Speaking during a Chinese television interview, the missile’s chief designer revealed that the missile is nearly complete, and offered new key details.
Designed by the Luoyang Electro-Optical Research Institute (LEOC), images of the fifth-generation PL-10 first surfaced in 2013. Carried onboard the J-20 fighter, the missiles have also been seen on the J-11, a copy of the Russian Su-27.
Based purely on those photos, experts were able to confirm that the PL-10 utilizes thrust vectoring. Its large fins also likely give the missile high rates of maneuverability, and it may feature a helmet-mounted display sighting system.
Speaking on a Chinese television broadcast last month, Liang Xiaogeng was able to provide more concrete details.
Weighing in at nearly 200 pounds, the 10-foot PL-10 features “world-class” capabilities. After being in development for the past seven years, the missile has a range of 12 miles.
According to Liang, the missile also includes “multi-element imaging infrared seeker with anti-jamming capabilities” and off-boresight attacks.
So far, the PL-10 has already been successfully test-fired 30 times.
This isn’t Liang’s first rodeo. He’s also worked on LEOC’s PL-9C, an infrared/helmet-sighted air-to-air missile, and served as chief designer for the medium-range PL-12.
Liang’s interview came only days before the September 3 military parade in Beijing highlighted the Chinese military’s latest developments. With over 500 units of military hardware and 200 aircraft, the event showed off a number of previously classified ballistic and cruise missiles.
“Much of the weaponry on display – all of it said to be in service in the People’s Liberation Army – will be new, the product of a military modernization drive aimed at ensuring that China can never again be attacked with impunity or overrun by foreign invaders,” retired US Ambassador Chas W. Freeman told Sputnik.
The advanced PL-10s, equipped onboard the maneuverable J-11s, could be a highly effective combination.
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