J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)

[Dizasta1]

J-10B - Production, Engines & etc!

By the looks of it, the serial production of the J-10B has not started as of yet. Also, there is no clarity on whether China has been able to attain a full grip on the WS-10A Taihang engine development. The word on various forums has been that China is getting to grips with mass production, logistic support and maintenance infrastructure for the WS-10A engines. With what certainty, if any, this can be assumed, is anyone's guess. However, the fact still remains that it is imperative for China to be able to establish, foster and expand it's engine development and production industry, in order to be able to expand on various other projects, such as the Heavy Military Cargo Aircraft program, Unmanned Combat Air Vehicle program, the In-Flight Refueling Aircraft and of course the Next Gen-Bomber project.

Having Chinese power-plants, powering Chinese fighter-jets, is not just some accolade to be won. Rather, this capability falls under the doctrine of necessity for any great power, aspiring to become independent and self-sustaining.

We Pakistanis, look at China with hope and admiration, and would be keen on witnessing all Chinese aircraft, powered by Chinese engines. In this context, as a current and future operator of Chinese Military Hardware (J-10B, JF-17 & WZ-10), it would come as a strategic advantage to Pakistan Military, with all aspects of the hardware, being Chinese. Single source for all components is an advantage and a single source being your primary ally, is a huge advantage, considering the times that we live in today. Western sanctions and embargoes have hurt Pakistan in the past and as the saying goes "One should learn from their past!"

 

[Engineer]

AL-31 engine?

It has been known for a long time that the first batch of J-10B will be powered by AL-31F.

 

[asif iqbal]

To be honest I find it pretty disappointing that J10B will use AL-31, I was hoping J10B would be the step out of the shadow from Russia and prove Chinas true indigenous fighter aircraft, the engine is a fundamental require for J10B

Plus the recent engines import would also suggest WS10 will not on J10B

 

[Engineer]

To be honest I find it pretty disappointing that J10B will use AL-31, I was hoping J10B would be the step out of the shadow from Russia and prove Chinas true indigenous fighter aircraft, the engine is a fundamental require for J10B

J-10B will eventually have WS10A, or you would not see a J-10B outfitted with WS10A otherwise.

Plus the recent engines import would also suggest WS10 will not on J10B

Not so. J-10A is still under production and will require AL-31F. Also, the old J-10A will also need replacement engines given the short lifespan of Russian engine.

 

[i.e.]

To be honest I find it pretty disappointing that J10B will use AL-31, I was hoping J10B would be the step out of the shadow from Russia and prove Chinas true indigenous fighter aircraft, the engine is a fundamental require for J10B

Plus the recent engines import would also suggest WS10 will not on J10B

for all intents and purposes PLA have a AL-31 production line. it is only called a overhual line (ran by airforce logisitics) just to avoid derailing WS-10 funding and pissing off AVIC. the current chairman of avic came from Li-Ming which developed WS-10 and made his name. he has some political clout. it is part of grand bargin they struck between PLA and AVIC.

Saturn has a full co-operative relation with them too.

 

[Hyperwarp]

...
Saturn has a full co-operative relation with them too.

But the AL-31FN is provided by MMPP Salut.

 

[Franklin]

As i understand there are prototypes of J-10B flying with the WS-10A engines. At this point there are no J-10B's in production and we just don't know when J-10B will go into production. It could be at the end of this year or the end of next year. So how do you know that the first batch of J-10B will use AL-31 engines ?

 

[Lion]

Re: J-10B - Production, Engines & etc!

By the looks of it, the serial production of the J-10B has not started as of yet. Also, there is no clarity on whether China has been able to attain a full grip on the WS-10A Taihang engine development. The word on various forums has been that China is getting to grips with mass production, logistic support and maintenance infrastructure for the WS-10A engines. With what certainty, if any, this can be assumed, is anyone's guess. However, the fact still remains that it is imperative for China to be able to establish, foster and expand it's engine development and production industry, in order to be able to expand on various other projects, such as the Heavy Military Cargo Aircraft program, Unmanned Combat Air Vehicle program, the In-Flight Refueling Aircraft and of course the Next Gen-Bomber project.

Having Chinese power-plants, powering Chinese fighter-jets, is not just some accolade to be won. Rather, this capability falls under the doctrine of necessity for any great power, aspiring to become independent and self-sustaining.

We Pakistanis, look at China with hope and admiration, and would be keen on witnessing all Chinese aircraft, powered by Chinese engines. In this context, as a current and future operator of Chinese Military Hardware (J-10B, JF-17 & WZ-10), it would come as a strategic advantage to Pakistan Military, with all aspects of the hardware, being Chinese. Single source for all components is an advantage and a single source being your primary ally, is a huge advantage, considering the times that we live in today. Western sanctions and embargoes have hurt Pakistan in the past and as the saying goes "One should learn from their past!"

Haven get full grasp of WS-10A? Then how about the J-11B , J-11BS and J-15 plus the new J-16 all running on WS-10A? That will estimate to have at least hundreds of WS-10A produced. If u chunk out more than a hundred pieces and still not called it full grasp then is what?

I think it's more to do with rivalry than capabilities. Chengdu and shenyang aviation corps are rival. Shenyang liming under shenyang corps which produced WS-10A of course will not make it easy for rival to have their engine. After all J-10 are competing with their J series fighter for PLAAF and PLAN order.

You see new fighter like J-16 has no problem getting WS-10A. The new leak photo of it show it equipped with domestic WS-10A.

 

[RedMercury]

for all intents and purposes PLA have a AL-31 production line. it is only called a overhual line (ran by airforce logisitics) just to avoid derailing WS-10 funding and pissing off AVIC. the current chairman of avic came from Li-Ming which developed WS-10 and made his name. he has some political clout. it is part of grand bargin they struck between PLA and AVIC.

Saturn has a full co-operative relation with them too.

I've heard this rumor before, can you elaborate on what this "overhaul line" can do? Can it assemble new engines from scratch?

 

[plawolf]

Re: J-10B - Production, Engines & etc!

I think there is also a capacity issue.

There should be no question now that China has mastered the WS10A and that it is in full mass production. However, high-end turbine engines are not iphones and the manufacturing capacity can only be expanded so fast without risking sacrificing quality control.

Something else to consider is the massive numbers of AL31s the PLA currently already operates.

We know about the infamously short life spans of Russian AL31s, and we know the Chinese are only buying a very small number of them for J10s. SAC appears to have been cut-off from Russia, so I seriously doubt they are getting spares.

We also know that the Chinese AL31 overhaul facility is much more than what the name suggests, and that they have actually been able to substantially increase the lifespan of AL31s there.

I would hazard a guess that they are manufacturing all the parts needed to repair and replace existing AL31s at that plant, and that a lot of China's single crystal blade production capacity might be taken up with making replacement blades for existing AL31s instead of new WS10As.

After all, if you were the head of the PLA logistics department, which would you prefer - to exercise the option to buy more AL31FNs for J10s and devote some fan blade production capacity into making replacement parts to keep the PLA's vast Flanker fleet flying, or to use all the production capacity to make new WS10As for J10Bs but risk having J11s grounded for a lack for spares to keep their engines running safely?

The PLA have always been pragmatic, and would not risk compromising operational efficiency for the sake of appearances.

Hell, we all know about economies of scale, it could easily be that with WS10A production only just ramping up, the unit price of WS10As might be higher than AL31s. Buying more AL31s and having the first J10Bs use them might just be a means of keeping costs down until WS10A unit prices drop to a comparable level.