Israeli preparing for 'all out' war (Ground Invasion)

unknauthr

Junior Member
Is that not irresponsible in densely populated area like Gaza and why they have need to use cluster munition, IDF have precision munition?
With cluster munition there will more collateral damage and that is unfavorable for Israel's propaganda?

Israel has largely refrained from employing their artillery during the current conflict - although given the ranges involved, it would have been relatively easy (and cheaper) to pummel the entire Gaza strip with artillery rather than relying on aircraft.

They opened up the artillery only in the hours preceding the ground operation, to clear-out the olive groves and sand dunes surrounding Gaza City of any land mines, traps or ambush parties.
 

akihh

New Member
Arty in densely populated area is bad. No matter how effective, it's savage and is a sure way to generate shitload of dead and maimed civvies. Shown over and over on Al Jazeera it will generate more "street" anger against Israel and arab governments incapable to do anything except lip service.

Argh, I detest anyone using area weapons in populated zones.

155mm HE round has a 100% kill zone of 50m and 50% maim zone of 100m against humans above ground, and the CEP is more than 100m. Even when equipped with GPS course correction unit the CEP is less than 50m. So no means precision weapons. Anyone with similar data on Israeli M395/M396 155mm cluster rounds and of grad/quassam rockets that hamas is launching against israeli cities?
 
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pla101prc

Senior Member
i got no problem with using cluster munitions since i am also serving in the army and believes in making my enemy suffer...but in cities?
 

The_Zergling

Junior Member
i got no problem with using cluster munitions since i am also serving in the army and believes in making my enemy suffer...but in cities?

Well what people are questioning isn't the killing power of cluster munitions, the problem is specifically that they're indiscriminate, and usage in cities is part of that. In addition, for some reason, cluster bombs don't appear to always explode reliably (perhaps just a probability problem since so many bomblets are dropped) so the effect is often somewhat like that of laying landmines in a warzone, where after the conflict is over there are many unnecessary civilian casualties.
 

unknauthr

Junior Member
Arty in densely populated area is bad. No matter how effective, it's savage and is a sure way to generate shitload of dead and maimed civvies.

You're quite right. Which is why the Israelis didn't use artillery in densely populated areas. As the journalists on the ground correctly reported, there was no artillery employed until shortly before the infantry and armour were ready to advance, and even then it was employed only in the areas surrounding Gaza City, to clear out minefields and IED's.

The Israelis are under a lot of scrutiny during the ongoing operations - far more than the US experienced during operations in Iraq or Afghanistan. They have therefore been relying heavily on precision munitions, and the ability to film every bomb strike to demonstrate the steps taken to avoid civilian casualties. This is despite the stated policies of the Islamic radicals in Hamas for using human shields.
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Sorry, I can't feel too sorry for the Islamic nut cases.

Question:
Are these cluster munition used by IDF?
[qimg]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45344000/jpg/_45344058_shell2_226i_afp.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/4043/idf1qm8.jpg[/qimg]

I happened across another debate on the subject of these same photos. The images that you posted are smoke rounds - intended to lay down a smoke screen for advancing armour or infantry, similar to the US M825 round illustrated below.
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Cluster munitions leave a very different footprint:
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akihh

New Member
You're quite right. Which is why the Israelis didn't use artillery in densely populated areas. As the journalists on the ground correctly reported, there was no artillery employed until shortly before the infantry and armour were ready to advance, and even then it was employed only in the areas surrounding Gaza City, to clear out minefields and IED's.

Yes, Israel didn't flatten the gaza strip via MRLS and artillery fire as they would be tried of genocide after that (1,5 million residents afterall). However IDF is relently shelling the gaza strip with land and naval artillery and that means collateral damage, no matter how it gets spinned. From todays
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:

"The guiding principle behind the . . . operation is . . . we are moving in with full force, shooting everything we have, including artillery," Alex Fishman, an Israeli military affairs correspondent, wrote Sunday in the newspaper Yediot Aharonot. "We'll pay the international price later for the collateral damage and the anticipated civilian casualties."

Sorry, I can't feel too sorry for the Islamic nut cases.

Me neither. I'm sorry for palestinian and israeli civvies who mostly has no say in this splendid little war and get killed because both sides play dirty.

The images that you posted are smoke rounds

Yeah,
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rounds, just as deadly as clusters when fired on:

“Although, I can’t say with 100 per cent certainty that these are classic white phosphorous rounds, they appear to have some form of white phosphorous content,” said Charles Heyman, a former editor of Jane’s World Armies. “If that is the case, this is bad news and the Israelis will lose out in terms of their international standing.”

The Israeli military last night denied using phosphorus, but refused to say what had been deployed. “Israel uses munitions that are allowed for under international law,” said Captain Ishai David, spokesman for the Israel Defence Forces.


Those pics were not posted by me, I just asked the cluster & grad kill radiuses.

My whole point was that IDF will lose the propaganda war as videos of dead and maimed civvies roll continuously on Al Jazeera et al. It just generates more terrorism and destabilize secular arab countries & strengthen Iran which is waging a propaganda war on "palestinian cause" as rest of the middle eastern countries stay pretty much silent.

IDF shoulda driven those tanks through gaza strip on first hour the war started. Hamas was so shell-shocked by bombings that their leadership, weapons stores and C&C would have been destroyed virtually unopposed. Now hamas had plenty of time to recover and prepare their defences as IDF bombed pitiful gazan infrastructure
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.
 
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pla101prc

Senior Member
the idea is to hit them unawared.
if the israelis walks in with tanks the very first moment they would have started mustering them way before that,which causes them to lose the element of surprise. in the case we have seen, however, israel gathered its forces concurrently with the aerial bombing. so first week bomb the hell out of paletine and second week tanks roll in.

with that being said i am still against military operations from either side
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
:eek:ff pla101prc which army are you now serving? Thank you.:eek:ff

a reservist in a NATO army,i am already on the "watch-list" of my country's spy agency so i cant really tell you what country i live in. but i have prolly revealed that in other posts lol
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
The last few post were really unnecessary. So they have been deleted. The matter is under review.

Let us return to the subject matter at hand.


bd popeye super moderator
 
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