Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)

_killuminati_

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yes i think if the US leaves the middle east then all muslim countries in the region will unite and live together peacefully. No more sectarianism, divisions, separatism, rivalries etc.
No, I don't think so. This is a common belief among many Muslims around the world; that the foreign enemy created these divisions, and if that enemy leaves, everything will become better. I strongly disagree with this, as do many local academics, top level Islamic scholars and historians.

The truth is that these divisions precede foreign occupation and colonialism, and according to scholars (especially the religious), it made foreign invasions and occupation easier. The enemies fuel the fire yes, but did not spark it, nor are the cause of the origin. The Muslims weakened themselves, becoming corrupt, decadent and incompetent.

Right now, most Muslims outside of the scholarly circles have not realized this truth and [falsely] put the blame on an external enemy.

If there's anything that will unite Muslim countries, it is a common enemy which is what we have today.
 

iBBz

Junior Member
Registered Member
No, I don't think so. This is a common belief among many Muslims around the world; that the foreign enemy created these divisions, and if that enemy leaves, everything will become better. I strongly disagree with this, as do many local academics, top level Islamic scholars and historians.

The truth is that these divisions precede foreign occupation and colonialism, and according to scholars (especially the religious), it made foreign invasions and occupation easier. The enemies fuel the fire yes, but did not spark it, nor are the cause of the origin. The Muslims weakened themselves, becoming corrupt, decadent and incompetent.

Right now, most Muslims outside of the scholarly circles have not realized this truth and [falsely] put the blame on an external enemy.

If there's anything that will unite Muslim countries, it is a common enemy which is what we have today.
This post sounds racist and Islamophobic.
 
No, I don't think so. This is a common belief among many Muslims around the world; that the foreign enemy created these divisions, and if that enemy leaves, everything will become better. I strongly disagree with this, as do many local academics, top level Islamic scholars and historians.

The truth is that these divisions precede foreign occupation and colonialism, and according to scholars (especially the religious), it made foreign invasions and occupation easier. The enemies fuel the fire yes, but did not spark it, nor are the cause of the origin. The Muslims weakened themselves, becoming corrupt, decadent and incompetent.

Right now, most Muslims outside of the scholarly circles have not realized this truth and [falsely] put the blame on an external enemy.

If there's anything that will unite Muslim countries, it is a common enemy which is what we have today.

This post sounds racist and Islamophobic.
Muslims cannot be viewed as a single homogenous group of people. Islam is one of the largest religions in the world and is geographically distributed across a expansive range of different countries, peoples, cultures, and ethnicities that will naturally have conflicting interests. Islam is no more of an overarching unifying force any more so than other major religions. If you look at Christianity, you see centuries of religious conflicts between Christians as well, ie Catholic vs Protestant, Orthodox vs Catholic, 30 Years War, persecution of Hueguenots, Hussites, etc.
 

_killuminati_

Junior Member
Registered Member
Muslims cannot be viewed as a single homogenous group of people. Islam is one of the largest religions in the world and is geographically distributed across a expansive range of different countries, peoples, cultures, and ethnicities that will naturally have conflicting interests. Islam is no more of an overarching unifying force any more so than other major religions. If you look at Christianity, you see centuries of religious conflicts between Christians as well, ie Catholic vs Protestant, Orthodox vs Catholic, 30 Years War, persecution of Hueguenots, Hussites, etc.
True, there are a variety of nations within but unlike most other religions, Islamic jurisprudence actually commands a unified state (caliphate). The earlier caliphates - Rashid and Abbasi - were good examples of unifying different nations under a single, large state (albeit they still had internal issues).

A caliphate has always been existent, up until WWI. When Ataturk abolished the Ottoman Caliphate, Muslims from all across the world scrambled to revive or create a new one. The creation of Pakistan, for example, was intended as a starting point for caliphate (that failed). Ottoman caliphate at that time was decadent and corrupt.

Now it is mostly extremist and terrorist groups who vow to create a caliphate. The West is vehemently opposed to the idea, for obvious reasons. A small number of non-extremist academic groups on this endeavor are routinely just thrown under the label of extremists. The average Muslim isn't interested in unifying, despite having a common enemy which they all despise.
 

TK3600

Captain
Registered Member
I don't think the Saudi's are conditioning the deal on the return to 1967 border. They know that's highly unrealistic.

MBS is also less attached to Palestinian cause than his father. He cut financial aid to the Palestinian authority, censored online criticism of Israel, etc.. And it's an open secret that there is already extensive security and intelligence cooperation between Israel and Saudi Arbia.

I think the Saudi's desperately want this deal as much as the Americans and Israelis. The world is transitioning away from Oil (and therefore Saudi's relevance). They prob will sacrifice some of their Palestinian demands in order to get a NATO style guarantees from US.
Conversely, if US cannot secure Israel which is its top priority, then it can protect nothing.
 

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
If the middle east is allowed to unite, they would be another great power, will certainly have nuclear power too. And possible stronger than Iran. Arab is a bigger population than Persians.

This of course means Israel will cease to exist.
Arabs are not a unified ethnic group though. Egyptians and Iraqis both speak Arabic, but their ancestors are the ancient Egyptians and the Babylonians. They speak different dialects and have different religions. Why would such a diverse group of people form one country? They have nothing in common other than language and their dialects aren't even that similar. For how long could they possibly remain united until a new civil war starts?

It's been more than a thousand years since the two most important cultural centres of the Arab world, Cairo and Baghdad, were separated by the Fatimid caliphate conquest of Egypt. Incidentally,at that time Egypt was Shia and Iraq Sunni
 

_killuminati_

Junior Member
Registered Member
It's been more than a thousand years since the two most important cultural centres of the Arab world, Cairo and Baghdad, were separated by the Fatimid caliphate conquest of Egypt. Incidentally,at that time Egypt was Shia and Iraq Sunni
Cairo and Baghdad were unified under the Ottoman empire up until the 18th century. Egypt wasn't Shia; only the Fatimid royals were Shia, and they weren't interested in proselytizing.
 

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
Cairo and Baghdad were unified under the Ottoman empire up until the 18th century. Egypt wasn't Shia; only the Fatimid royals were Shia, and they weren't interested in proselytizing.
Fair enough, but ottoman control of Egypt was weak and they were foreigners, not Arabs. They even lost a war against the Egyptians. And Baghdad only became a permanent part of the ottoman empire in the 17th century

The Abbasids were the last Arab rulers to unite all Arab lands and that was a very long time ago
 

phrozenflame

Junior Member
Registered Member
True, there are a variety of nations within but unlike most other religions, Islamic jurisprudence actually commands a unified state (caliphate). The earlier caliphates - Rashid and Abbasi - were good examples of unifying different nations under a single, large state (albeit they still had internal issues).

A caliphate has always been existent, up until WWI. When Ataturk abolished the Ottoman Caliphate, Muslims from all across the world scrambled to revive or create a new one. The creation of Pakistan, for example, was intended as a starting point for caliphate (that failed). Ottoman caliphate at that time was decadent and corrupt.

Now it is mostly extremist and terrorist groups who vow to create a caliphate. The West is vehemently opposed to the idea, for obvious reasons. A small number of non-extremist academic groups on this endeavor are routinely just thrown under the label of extremists. The average Muslim isn't interested in unifying, despite having a common enemy which they all despise.
Pakistan wasn't created as some part of plot to revive caliphate, it was created after it was made clear there would be no guarantees of the rights of Muslim minorities hard coded in to United political entity's constitution against majoritarian populist shit show which is exactly what India has become today 75+ years later, exactly as foreseen by Pakistan's founder and exactly something he wanted protection against. Once that failed to materialize, Muslims used the oppurtune time to create their own state in subcontinent.

There is an element of romanticism with the whole 'caliphate' concept. Reality is there have always been multiple Muslim states for majority of the Islamic history. Only time you see overarching 'caliphate' is when one political state overpowered it's neighbours through trade, culture, religion, economy or use of arms or blend of these elements and eventually becoming a regional or global power.

The rulers used religion as one of the tools to legitimize their claim to the throne, which has been an age-old human tradition long before Abrahamic religions dominated the world.

You all need to stop thinking that Muslim world is waiting and aspiring to be united under some enlightened caliphate, they are not. Prophet's (PBUH) direct family was murdered within 50 years by the aspiring caliph of the time. It's been game of thrones since the death of the Prophet.

The religion does indeed provide a source of overarching sense of commonality such as belief in one god, the last prophet and pillars of the religion. Beyond that, it's the usual squabbles, humans being humans.

Palestinian cause is super popular on the Muslim street and will continue to do so, it will not however translate into government action because the street does not determine the govt in majority of the countries.

Regarding what country x, y or z seek in protection agreements, I think they seek protection and stability against regime-change ops. Ask Libyans and Iraqis how relatively decent countries were turned into hell holes. Ask common Iranians the price they are paying for independent foreign policy.

The protection is against this:
“If you want to protect your interests, you must do one thing – remain silent!” - Netanyahu.


Israel has become a colonial project of the present day hegemony, it's used to divide, conquer, instill fear, create instability to manage and control a resource with slowly dwindling importance. The whole game is messed up and unique because the colony has established a strong political influence over it's sponsor.
 
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TK3600

Captain
Registered Member
Regarding what country x, y or z seek in protection agreements, I think they seek protection and stability against regime-change ops. Ask Libyans and Iraqis how relatively decent countries were turned into hell holes. Ask common Iranians the price they are paying for independent foreign policy.

The protection is against this:
“If you want to protect your interests, you must do one thing – remain silent!” - Netanyahu.


Israel has become a colonial project of the present day hegemony, it's used to divide, conquer, instill fear, create instability to manage and control a resource with slowly dwindling importance. The whole game is messed up and unique because the colony has established a strong political influence over it's sponsor.
You mixed up the cause and effect. Israel exist because zionists had strong influence over its sponsors. Over time the influence grew, and so is the priority of Israel for the sponsors. You talk as if Israel existed first and controlled its backer. That is not the case, because its very existence presupposed a strong Jewish influence in powerful country in first place. The state of Israel is merely the product of that influence. Israel did not 'exert influence' on anyone, it was always the force that exist prior to Israel exerting the influence.

If state of Israel is the body, the soul of the body is in US. Take out the body, the soul will wander until it find a new body. Take out the soul, the body start to behave responsibly like every other mortal.
 
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