Is War Coming to Iran?

delft

Brigadier
We'll need to see how the mess in Syria will be dealt with - though Syria and Iran ain't physically bordered they're close allies, whichever way the current situation Syria goes - current regime toppled or survived - it'll nonetheless leave it invalid for some time, at least in terms of responding to the Iranian situation.

Thus it'd be when Syria no longer in the current state of flux then the "Iran question" will be answered...
Many things are connected in many ways in the Middle East. We shouldn't look at the position of Iran in isolation, a MwRYum notices. When the unrest in Syria began it was the expectation of many that it would grow fast and that the Assad regime would be toppled. That didn't happen, apparently because the number of opponents to the regime is small. The sponsors of the unrest, among them Qatar, the US and France, then decided that an armed insurrection should be combined a massive propaganda campaign. That too hasn't yet been successful. In the mean time the influence of the US in Iraq is much smaller than the they expected after the failed occupation. The New York Times publishes today a hilarious article about halving the size of the US embassy in Baghdad. (
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) That embassy was to number some 16 000 or 17 000 personnel, compared with the embassy of Iraq's main trading partner and neighbor Turkey having 55 members.
Quite clearly the US is signalling to the countries in the Middle East that they don't know what they are doing. That in itself is dangerous because it might lead Israel to think that it can propel the US into a war against Iran that will be very damaging to the economies of perhaps even all countries in the world.
 

solarz

Brigadier
They could always stop the Israeli air attack. Theoretically, the Israeli Air Force would need at least multiple precision strikes on the Iranian facility near Natanz, due to it's thick earth/reinforced-concrete arrangement, plus the fact that it's being guarded by a sophisticated and multi-layered IADS network. That's all assuming Israel bypasses the rest of the Iranian IADS along it's western borders, while having enough fuel and munitions to actually bomb the place, whilst evading or jamming Iranian SAMs. This is also a good time to note that the distance between Tel Aviv and Natanz is an even 1,000 miles!

I think that would be the best case scenario: Iran gets boasting rights (and thus no need to take any retaliatory action), and Israel stops being overly aggressive, possibly even toppling the Netanyahu government. However, it's difficult to tell how likely this outcome is.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I disagree that Iran would be willing to give up its nuclear program if Israel disarms. Iran pursues nuclear weapons for the same reason North Korea does: as a deterrence against US invasion. Therefore, whether or not Israel has nukes makes no difference in this regard.

But since when has there ever been a realistic threat of an US led invasion of Iran?

The US no doubt could invade Iran if it really wanted to, but why would it be willing to pay the massive cost in treasure and lives to do so?

The only realistic US military scenarios involving Iran are air strikes and limited ground operations, in the form of special forces. Against those kinds of attacks, a nuclear weapon is all but useless.

There are no large gathering of conventional military targets in the region to lob a nuke at, and even if Iran had the ability to hit CONUS with a nuclear armed missile, doing so would result in massively disproportionate retaliatory nuclear attacks from the US that will probably wipe Iran off the map.

Iran wants nuclear weapons primarily because Israel, unlike every other nuclear armed country, seems perfectly willing to deploy their nukes in non-doomsday scenarios and against non-nuclear armed states.

When faced with such a hostile neigbour, the only rational long term strategy for anyone who does not want to kowtow to the Israelis is to develop their own nukes to check this perceived Israeli nonchalance about using nuclear weapons.

If Israeli disarmament was on offer, Iran would achieve it's primary objective for developing nukes without having to actually do so (so save itself the costs of doing so, both materially in diplomatically). Hell, it would be far better for them than actually having nukes. Because Israel's nuclear arsenal is/will be much larger, and there is no realistic possibility of forcefully disarming someone else's nukes during a war, so there is still always the threat of an Israeli nuclear strike that they need to worry about.

What I find most striking about this situation is that while everyone fret about Iranian nukes and want to find a way to prevent that, in the name of non-proliferation, not one official, from any of the countries making the most waves about Iranian nukes, have ever even hinted at the possibility of Israeli disarmament.

Now, if we swap Israel for Pakistan, who wants to bet no-one from the west would be floating the idea that they should disarm their nukes in exchange for Iran scrapping its own nuclear programme?
 

Red Moon

Junior Member
Well I think this is a lot of talk and no action. They're trying to scare Iran into submission. The Western economies would certainly go through another hit making it far worse. Does anyone really think after Iraq and Afghanistan, this would turn out any better? And after Obama turned the US's focus on the Far East, how would it look for the election that he let Israel do that and certainly dragging the US into another Middle East war?

Well, this is closest to the way I have been viewing this. For over a decade, we've witnessed this scenario many times over: some "leak" about impending war on Iran, questions about whether the Israeli's will strike on their own, etc. The threats have never panned out. Essentially, all of the "actors" are aware that Iran has become stronger, rather than weaker, as a result of America's twin mis-adventures (Iraq and Afghanistan). The Saudi's, Israel, and others in the neighborhood, have been somewhat upset with the US about this outcome, and now the US has even withdrawn most troops from Iraq, adding the regime in this country to the list of "Iranian influenced" forces in the region. Therefore, for the US there has been, and there continues to be a need to compensate, by piling a ton of pressure, threats, sanctions etc, on Iran.

But there's a new element, this time around, and this is the much advertized American "pivot" to East Asia. The notion that the US is going to effect such a shift to the East, and ALSO have a new war in the Middle East, is simply insane. As for Israel... no, the tail does not wag the dog, and it never has. To me, those rumors about Israeli intrigues to manipulate American policies are simply aimed at leaving the US a way to back out.

This time around, in my view, Obama is not aiming for war with Iran, but for a DEAL. This is why there are rumors about Israeli manipulations, why the US Navy has been rescuing Iranians at sea, and why Obama has been leaving the option of negotiations open. I think the Iranians are aware of this also, and this is why they are being so nice to the IAEA inspectors. Obama even hints that a deal is his objective. However, the deal he is seeking is probably not for Iran to abandon its nuclear research.

The "pivot" which the media has been discussing since the end of last year is actually not new. Already, the Pentagon's Quadrennial Defense Review in 2001 called for shifting forces to the arc extending from the Bay of Bengal to the Sea of Japan. I don't remember the actual wording, but I took note of the geography! And for some years, the largest part of the US Navy has been based--though not deployed-- in the Asia Pacific region. And in 2010 we got a preview of what this could mean, with all of the activity around the Korean Peninsula, and the noise about "freedom of navigation" in the South China Sea.

Somehow, the planned "pivot" never seems to pan out. The reason is that, while priorities are rarely actually stated (for the US, at least in public pronouncements, every corner of the earth always seems to be of "vital interest") it is obvious that the Middle East is the key to world supremacy for the US. Therefore, as long as things are not "quiet" in the Middle East, there can be no "pivot" to East Asia and the Pacific. And this means the US has to "resolve" things with Iran in some way, if it is to follow its avowed strategy.

With the upcoming embargo on Iranian oil, and sanctions on its central bank, and with the ongoing onslaught on its ally Syria, Iran is under unprecedented pressure. Yet there is absolutely no reason to think that it will give up its nuclear development. It can survive the embargo, since many countries will still be importing it's oil, and even if it were to lose Syria, well, it has recently gained Iraq and the US is set to leave Afghanistan. The only option for the US is a "RESET" of sorts. The US needs to put the Iranian problem on a back burner, but it needs Iran to agree to this.

We have seen this before. Nothing really changed in the relations between the US and Russia. Missile defense plans continue, and so do Russian strategies with respect to its "near abroad". But the TONE of the relationship has cooled down since the Bush years. Similarly, with Myanmar, we are witnessing a sort of media-event "democratization". We are told "change" is happening, relations improve, and a "rogue regime" is no longer. Facts are not needed; the media obliges. Today, there is even talk in the news about reaching some agreement with the DPRK! Indeed, the "reset" with Russia and the change in relations with Myanmar are both aimed at facilitating the isolation or encirclement of China. So is the current round of wheeling and dealing in connection with Iran.

Alas, things don't always work the way you want them to, and I don't think this will either. In this connection, I find China's response to be rather "on the money". The recent initiatives towards the GCC countries (Wen's recent trip), and also the initiatives towards Israel mentioned in the Bhadrakumar article posted by delft elsewhere are perfect. The Israelis and the GCC countries will definitely see through any attempt by the Obama administration to present a concession to Iran as a concession FROM Iran. They will not like Obama "playing nice" with Iran, after having put themselves on the line for the US. Nor will anybody else: India, Japan, etc. It seems to me China has moved pre-emptively to take advantage of this displeasure... unless, of course, Obama, once again, postpones the "pivot" to the East.

---------- Post added at 01:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 AM ----------

The New York Times publishes today a hilarious article about halving the size of the US embassy in Baghdad. (
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)
A hilarious article indeed! The accompanying slideshow is even funnier:).
 
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
A hilarious article indeed! The accompanying slideshow is even funnier

Nothing funny in that article. You fellows hate the US so much it shows on your sleeves. I don't hate what ever country you are from. I don't hate you. I love my fellow man. That's the truth.

I watched the slide show. Very nice embassy for a country(USA) that everyone thinks is "broke".
 

delft

Brigadier
Nothing funny in that article. You fellows hate the US so much it shows on your sleeves. I don't hate what ever country you are from. I don't hate you. I love my fellow man. That's the truth.

I watched the slide show. Very nice embassy for a country(USA) that everyone thinks is "broke".
I don't hate the US. After the culture of my own country I am most interested in the culture of the US. Indeed I've probably read more novels written by US writers, and in English, than novels by Dutch writers. But the notion that a country will build an embassy fit to be the palace for a vice-roi is indeed hilarious. Even with half the crew of the original planning it is ridiculous. What are they thinking at Foggy Bottom?
 

MwRYum

Major
I watched the slide show. Very nice embassy for a country(USA) that everyone thinks is "broke".

That's because the money for the embassy complex have been paid for before US gone broke...and that said, for a "broke" country it still owns the most powerful military on the surface of this planet.

US is just "broke", fellas, not "bankrupt" (or borderline bankrupt) like the "euro-PIGGS", unless the Greenback lost its status as global reserve currency...and that ain't gonna happen anytime within the foreseeable future.
 

Red Moon

Junior Member
Nothing funny in that article. You fellows hate the US so much it shows on your sleeves. I don't hate what ever country you are from. I don't hate you. I love my fellow man. That's the truth.

I watched the slide show. Very nice embassy for a country(USA) that everyone thinks is "broke".

Hello Popeye,

Now we've gone off topic, and I never intended this when I agreed with Delft with a few short words tacked on at the end of my long post. But since I'm accused, I'd like to answer.

The article and slide show in the NY Times uses irony and subtle humor to highlight what the journalist obviously sees as WASTEFUL SPENDING. He quotes Iraqis poking fun at the sheer scale of the facility, and he directly contrasts its size with that of another embassy (Iraq's neighbor and largest trading partner, no less). He shows you images of a large and beautiful pool being used by exactly one person, a brand new gym that is totally empty aside from a single woman on a treadmill, and several deserted tennis courts on a nice sunny day. Then there is the image of a very nicely arranged pile of fresh fruit which no one is touching, at least in that photograph, together with an anecdote which implies that all of that nice food is imported!

I have no idea how this demonstrates this journalist's "hate", nor that of people laughing at his obviously INTENDED humor. It sounds like you don't agree with the author's intended criticism, but the fact of the matter is that the article is reporting on efforts to REDUCE the scale of the operation, which means that Washington DOES agree with this criticism.

You have said above that you don't hate us... but you paint us with the same brush you use for racists at MP net, and I find that somewhat insulting. I don't think I've been disrespectful to the US or any other country on this forum, and I don't remember even expressing moral indignation about American actions. I admit that I like the way the world has been evolving these years and I suppose you don't, but why does that make me a "hater"?
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
First off I'm very sorry I stated that red moon and delft hated the US.

You have said above that you don't hate us... but you paint us with the same brush you use for racists at MP net

You'd be incorrect in that thinking. Those that are bigots at mp.net truly are. They use that free flowing forum to , in a under handed manner, spew their hate. You fellows do not express those feelings of hate here at SDF.

and I find that somewhat insulting.

I never intended to insult anyone. Never. If I did, I'm truly sorry.

I admit that I like the way the world has been evolving these years and I suppose you don't, but why does that make me a "hater"?

No it does not make you a hater. And I do not like how the World as it is today. However >>> My issues with the World are about the morals of the World rather than political & economic views.

Also anyone else that I stated hates the US ..so be it. I'm sorry. I won't do it again.

I stand on these words.

I'm a proud patriotic American for that I will never apologize. No need. I will never slander or spew hate towards anyone or any other country.
 
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